Do Hunters Effect Antler Genetics

[WRO]

Absolutely, I know of a few ranches that were overhunted and every 4 point died for generations. They now have bad forked horn and 3 point genetics and good 4 points are hard to find.

 

[roadrunner]

Yes, his genes don't change throughout his life.

Only a human can change its genes over its lifetime.

Sorry...I digress.

 

[WRO]

Only a human can change its genes over its lifetime.

Sorry...I digress.

That’s gender


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[roadrunner]

That’s gender


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And guess where the word "gender" derives from...

 

[WRO]

And guess where the word "gender" derives from...

Science has left the building.

 

[SDArcher7]

Was science ever in the building?

 

[S.Clancy]

Data has shown in both whitetail and mule deer that "antler genetics" are primarily related to in vitro and maternal condition. Kevin Monteith has a great study on whitetail in South Dakota. Whether you want to believe it or not, genetics play little role.

 

[WRO]

Data has shown in both whitetail and mule deer that "antler genetics" are primarily related to in vitro and maternal condition. Kevin Monteith has a great study on whitetail in South Dakota. Whether you want to believe it or not, genetics play little role.

Huh, that doesn’t match generations of observations in the field.

 

[eyeguy]

It feels to me like Shooting the bigger young deer has to have an impact but bet it is less than we think. Habitat for great animal health both buck and doe health likely a bigger factor.
Also in humans at least the body condition good or bad of both mom and dad at time of conception plays a role in the characteristics expressed by the offspring[our kids]. So even though our genes dont change our health and environment can influence offsping traits.

 

[S.Clancy]

Huh, that doesn’t match generations of observations in the field.

Generations of observations used to believe disease was caused by bad spirits until Louis Pasteur provided evidence for the Germ Theory of Disease.

You can believe whatever you want, doesn't mean you're right.

 

[AHayes111]

However, places like S.E. MT there has to be something going on with the amount of pressure and everyone killing any 4x4 no matter size. There are copy and paste 3x3 and 3x4s all over that country but traditionally was not like that. I'd say a big swing to that prevalence in the last 10-15years

I am not willing to say that all the 4x4s have been shot out of SE MT. I will say with SE MT terrain, MT's long rut season and plentiful doe tags, hunters can afford to be very selective with the bucks they want to shoot. The 4x4s are shot at a young age and the bucks that only have three points or less live longer. This is why we seeing more and more threes and big two points.

 

[S.Clancy]

Growth of Male White-Tailed Deer: Consequences of Maternal Effects

Abstract. Identifying maternal effects on offspring is critical to interpreting population dynamics, but the duration of maternal effects and which life-hi

academic.oup.com

 

[AHayes111]

I often see the same antler traits recurring in the same places. The best example of this is on two winter ranges less than five miles apart. In one of the winter ranges 6 of the top ten bucks grew brow tines of better than five inches. On the other winter range 5 of the best ten had no brow tines and none of the bucks had a brow tine longer than three inches.

 

[EdP]

This is an interesting study but it doesn't appear to be relevant to the OP's question because it is looking at two different populations. The question of hunter effects on antler genetics, or the expression of those genetics, only applies to the population being hunted.

 

[Touchdown88]

The Book Cliffs in Utah went to a 4x4 or better hunt in the 1990s before closing down for several years. Now there are an abundance of 2x3 mature deer running around.

 

[WRO]

Generations of observations used to believe disease was caused by bad spirits until Louis Pasteur provided evidence for the Germ Theory of Disease.

You can believe whatever you want, doesn't mean you're right.

I see you don’t even know how to interpret the study you posted, it has nothing to do with total point count, just overall antler size and body size based off winter conditions. They’re not mutually exclusive items.

Go get another booster shot.

 

[S.Clancy]

I see you don’t even know how to interpret the study you posted, it has nothing to do with total point count, just overall antler size and body size based off winter conditions. They’re not mutually exclusive items.

Go get another booster shot.

They directly tested the hypothesis of genetics vs nutrition. It turns out, once you are a generation removed (ie controlling the maternal condition) the genetics for antler growth between populations is functionally the same.

I haven't seen any data supporting genetic link for point configurations.

 

[S.Clancy]

The Book Cliffs in Utah went to a 4x4 or better hunt in the 1990s before closing down for several years. Now there are an abundance of 2x3 mature deer running around.

There certainly could be a genetic bottleneck, but there could also be confirmation bias. Just like when you hunt a unit where you can't shoot spikes, you tend to take note of each spike whereas you may not in a unit where any buck/bull is legal. That is the problem with anecdotal data, it is rife with different statistical bias.

 

[WRO]

There certainly could be a genetic bottleneck, but there could also be confirmation bias. Just like when you hunt a unit where you can't shoot spikes, you tend to take note of each spike whereas you may not in a unit where any buck/bull is legal. That is the problem with anecdotal data, it is rife with different statistical bias.

A spike is nearly always an immature animal. Watching a herd for a couple decades will show you which genetics are being expressed and which are missing.

For example 4 points were finally killed on my buddies ranch this year after we killed most of the cull breeders off of it over the last 15 years.

This is not walking around an otc unit for a couple of years, this is the same piece of ground that his family has been on for 100+ years.

The steens is Oregon is similar, they instituted a 4 point minimum for several years, there’s a much higher selection of three points and giant forks there now as compared to other adjacent units.

If it didn’t matter, states with trophy units wouldn’t institute management hunts.

 

[S.Clancy]

A spike is nearly always an immature animal. Watching a herd for a couple decades will show you which genetics are being expressed and which are missing.

I was making an example of confirmation bias.

For example 4 points were finally killed on my buddies ranch this year after we killed most of the cull breeders off of it over the last 15 years.

This is not walking around an otc unit for a couple of years, this is the same piece of ground that his family has been on for 100+ years.

The steens is Oregon is similar, they instituted a 4 point minimum for several years, there’s a much higher selection of three points and giant forks there now as compared to other adjacent units.

You could reference the studies that show antler point restrictions don't do anything. "Cull breeders" aren't a thing.

If it didn’t matter, states with trophy units wouldn’t institute management hunts.

States issue "management hunts" to increase opportunity.