disappointing hunt in G

bgipson said:
I'm late to the game when it comes to hunting Region G since I only began in 2018 so I really don't have historical perspective. There are great deer still there and I find at least 1 every year hunting for a week. I've shot 2 deer in the 4 years I've been hunting it including the buck in my profile (207" gross). That being said, I would 100% support a 14 day season and 2 or even 3 year tag. I honestly don't NEED to kill a deer because I fill 1 or 2 elk tags and 2 or 3 antelope tags every year and the deer are the worst off of the lot. I simply enjoy being up there with the opportunity to look at these bucks and potentially shoot 1 if he tickles my fancy. Getting residents to a mindset they don't NEED to kill a deer is difficult unless you limit them with a 2 or 3 year tag. It doesn't remove opportunity, it just limits harvest by making them really consider before they squeeze that trigger. I'd also support requiring picking a Region but keeping the guaranteed General tag. It would cut down on the guys coming over on the novelty idea of shooting a monster then going home and hunting their season that opens later thereby reducing pressure on the area.

The earlier sentiments that sheep are an issue is correct. The herders camp those sheep in a basin and they eat it to dirt and taint any standing water before they move on. We see very little for predators in the high country and elk are hit or miss depending where we are.
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Getting people into the mindset they don't NEED long range rifles like you have in your profile pic is where we could start also. The residents that NEED to shoot a buck every year should be allowed to if it's their opportunity maybe they don't like elk and antelope. Once the government starts limiting your hunting opportunities they sure aren't going to ever give you more in the future. You could always just do your part and only hunt it every 3 years, just to set an example.
 
wyoguy said:
Getting people into the mindset they don't NEED long range rifles like you have in your profile pic is where we could start also. The residents that NEED to shoot a buck every year should be allowed to if it's their opportunity maybe they don't like elk and antelope. Once the government starts limiting your hunting opportunities they sure aren't going to ever give you more in the future. You could always just do your part and only hunt it every 3 years, just to set an example.
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What makes a rifle "long range"? Because it isn't factory and can shoot better than Minute of Pie Plate? I don't need a rifle that shoots well but it sure makes it nicer not wounding animals because I know where the shot is going to go every time. You can keep shooting forks (or whatever you choose) every year cuz you "need the meat" and I'll keep doing what I do and only harvesting deer that fit my criteria.

Nobody NEEDS the meat because if they did they're either poaching critters close to home or using the money it would cost to hunt to buy cheaper per pound meat at the store. Ain't anybody hunting in Wyoming coming out ahead in $/lb for wild game vs beef. Especially with gas at $5 a gallon.
 
Long story short, 2 scope base screws came loose at some point between the trailhead and that shot. I shot a 1/2 MOA group, hiked in, slept overnight, and shot the buck in the morning. The rifle never got dropped or bumped. I hit him at the neck jaw junction but that was dumb luck considering the rear base had come loose. I got home and tore the rifle down to find that. I had already shot 3 antelope in the month prior with the same rifle and no issues. Now the bases are pinned to the action and the screws have Loctite so that won't happen again.

2020 Mule Deer
 
kscowboy01 said:
I'll be in Region G with an outfitter that I vetted through this message board. I'll have a report for everyone upon my return. I will be hunting opening day with a rifle. My target is something over 180", as I already have one that tapes out right about there and I hunt Rio Arriba County, NM every year. I'm excited to be hunting one of the best basins in mule deer hunting and will be in "sheep shape" come September.
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Well, as promised, I am following-up here.

Thanks to this forum, I found Tre Heiner/Double Diamond Outfitters and had nothing but great feedback from those on this forum. I had some nice phone conversations with forum members on their hunts. If you look at the meat pole, I was successful on day 4 with a 186" buck. Weather was a major factor the first 2 days with the rain. Our camp went 3 for 3 and killed day 3, 4 (me), and 5. The other two gentlemen got nice bucks in the 170s. One of them had world class backs but poor fronts. He was a great buck and the hunter was very pleased.

The pack-in and out every day rule for outfitters was brutal. We were up at 3AM and back at camp after 9PM. Catnaps during the day were essential. I know that Tre hates this rule, as there are other under the table outfitters staying up on the mountain while we played by the rules.

There was definitely a lot of hunting pressure. We saw multiple other hunters and had the guy that walked through our bowl on Day 3 done it on Day 4 of my hunt, he would've blown my deer out. Wyoming probably needs to deviate from the General status for residents if it wants it to be a premier trophy unit in the future. We saw one dink being packed out.

I have no doubt that I would've really struggled to get the buck I did without Tre's team. They had bucks scouted and game plans. I don't have the time to scout during the summer, so that was a major decision for using an outfitter. It makes it pretty hard to learn the unit when it's now 9 points to draw and will continue to creep.
 
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kscowboy01 said:
Well, as promised, I am following-up here.

Thanks to this forum, I found Tre Heiner/Double Diamond Outfitters and had nothing but great feedback from those on this forum. I had some nice phone conversations with forum members on their hunts. If you look at the meat pole, I was successful on day 4 with a 186" buck. Weather was a major factor the first 2 days with the rain. Our camp went 3 for 3 and killed day 3, 4 (me), and 5. The other two gentleman got nice bucks in the 170s. One of them had world class backs but poor fronts. He was a great buck and the hunter was very pleased.

The pack-in and out every day rule for outfitters was brutal. We were up at 3AM and back at camp after 9PM. Catnaps during the day were essential. I know that Tre hates this rule, as there are other under the table outfitters staying up on the mountain while we played by the rules.

There was definitely a lot of hunting pressure. We saw multiple other hunters and had the guy that walked through our bowl on Day 3 done it on Day 4 of my hunt, he would've blown my deer out. Wyoming probably needs to deviate from the General status for residents if it wants it to be a premier trophy unit in the future. We saw one dink being packed out.

I have no doubt that I would've really struggled to get the buck I did without Tre's team. They had bucks scouted and game plans. I don't have the time to scout during the summer, so that was a major decision for using an outfitter. It makes it pretty hard to learn the unit when it's now 9 points to draw and will continue to creep.
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Awful bold of you to try and suggest limiting how residents hunt when you came to our state as a nonresident with reasonable expectations of a great buck and actually killed 1. I'd say our system is working plenty well and it's opinions like yours that cause residents to become in support of 90/10. Enjoy the hunt you had and let my state manage game for the people of this state.

Also, nice buck. I'm glad it worked out because I know all too well how clueless people can ruin the best of plans running around through prime areas.
 
kscowboy01 said:
Well, as promised, I am following-up here.

Thanks to this forum, I found Tre Heiner/Double Diamond Outfitters and had nothing but great feedback from those on this forum. I had some nice phone conversations with forum members on their hunts. If you look at the meat pole, I was successful on day 4 with a 186" buck. Weather was a major factor the first 2 days with the rain. Our camp went 3 for 3 and killed day 3, 4 (me), and 5. The other two gentleman got nice bucks in the 170s. One of them had world class backs but poor fronts. He was a great buck and the hunter was very pleased.

The pack-in and out every day rule for outfitters was brutal. We were up at 3AM and back at camp after 9PM. Catnaps during the day were essential. I know that Tre hates this rule, as there are other under the table outfitters staying up on the mountain while we played by the rules.

There was definitely a lot of hunting pressure. We saw multiple other hunters and had the guy that walked through our bowl on Day 3 done it on Day 4 of my hunt, he would've blown my deer out. Wyoming probably needs to deviate from the General status for residents if it wants it to be a premier trophy unit in the future. We saw one dink being packed out.

I have no doubt that I would've really struggled to get the buck I did without Tre's team. They had bucks scouted and game plans. I don't have the time to scout during the summer, so that was a major decision for using an outfitter. It makes it pretty hard to learn the unit when it's now 9 points to draw and will continue to creep.
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The terrain is enough of a limiting factor - that is why this has remained a general area for residents. Sure there is plenty of hunting pressure but there are also a gob of nice deer shot yearly. I would say the system is working quite well. One other thing to consider- if this were to become a LQ area for residents, it would almost immediately turn into a max point draw for non-residents. As it stands, you probably won't draw it again, outside of getting lucky in the random, for 15+ years. Be happy you were successful on a great buck.
 
kscowboy01 said:
Well, as promised, I am following-up here.

Thanks to this forum, I found Tre Heiner/Double Diamond Outfitters and had nothing but great feedback from those on this forum. I had some nice phone conversations with forum members on their hunts. If you look at the meat pole, I was successful on day 4 with a 186" buck. Weather was a major factor the first 2 days with the rain. Our camp went 3 for 3 and killed day 3, 4 (me), and 5. The other two gentleman got nice bucks in the 170s. One of them had world class backs but poor fronts. He was a great buck and the hunter was very pleased.

The pack-in and out every day rule for outfitters was brutal. We were up at 3AM and back at camp after 9PM. Catnaps during the day were essential. I know that Tre hates this rule, as there are other under the table outfitters staying up on the mountain while we played by the rules.

There was definitely a lot of hunting pressure. We saw multiple other hunters and had the guy that walked through our bowl on Day 3 done it on Day 4 of my hunt, he would've blown my deer out. Wyoming probably needs to deviate from the General status for residents if it wants it to be a premier trophy unit in the future. We saw one dink being packed out.

I have no doubt that I would've really struggled to get the buck I did without Tre's team. They had bucks scouted and game plans. I don't have the time to scout during the summer, so that was a major decision for using an outfitter. It makes it pretty hard to learn the unit when it's now 9 points to draw and will continue to creep.
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How about some pictures? Was one of your guides Franco Simone? Hard working guy. Worked for me in Montana for awhile.

Congratulations on a successful hunt and thanks for keeping your word and following up with a report. I’ll hunt it diy next year and my goal is the same. I’ll spend 2 full weeks on top. Pretty excited about the hunt. It seems like the deer are continuing to bounce back from the hard winters a few years ago.
 
I want to bring up something that is totally not being talked about enough in all of these debates. We are in a new era of public land hunters and tag demand. I think game managers and public land overseers are not taking into account the demand increase for use of our public lands and the game resources they provide. This is important because I think we need to see an overall shift and how we allocate use of our public lands in relation to taxpayer benefit. I really think we need to take a hard look at permitted grazing and permitted outfitting.
Is it really in the best interest of taxpayers to allow a select few to profit on our lands ever year? I'm a rancher myself and understand how grazing permits and allotments work. But as a hunter and public land owner, I believe our wildlife populations are second tier to grazers in most areas. I believe the public tax payer as well as other grazing mammals would be better served to have more forage available to wildlife especially to survive hard winters. Allowing sheep grazing is especially hard. Why should one rancher profit for a lifetime when an increase in herds and thus tags would benefit hundreds annually?
And now to outfitters - first of all I highly respect Rob Wiley and think he is a great spokesperson for the mule deer herd in this area. But I have had my fair share of disappointing run-ins with young guides in these units. The majority of the better bucks in these units that are harvested are scouted all summer and taken out by outfitters clients. I honestly don't agree with it anymore. There was a time where it had a place, but I no longer believe that outfitters should get continual permits to operate on public lands. It's gotten to the point where many hunters are harassed by these guides and it doesn't allow everyone with a tag to have a fair shake at better bucks. If the outfitting stopped, more big bucks would survive and less pressure would be placed on the herds year round. Scouting packages are no more than outfitted hunts so I don't understand why outfitting is allowed but not the scouting. Again, it's not in the best interest of all of the public land owners.
 
Cowbell said:
I want to bring up something that is totally not being talked about enough in all of these debates. We are in a new era of public land hunters and tag demand. I think game managers and public land overseers are not taking into account the demand increase for use of our public lands and the game resources they provide. This is important because I think we need to see an overall shift and how we allocate use of our public lands in relation to taxpayer benefit. I really think we need to take a hard look at permitted grazing and permitted outfitting.
Is it really in the best interest of taxpayers to allow a select few to profit on our lands ever year? I'm a rancher myself and understand how grazing permits and allotments work. But as a hunter and public land owner, I believe our wildlife populations are second tier to grazers in most areas. I believe the public tax payer as well as other grazing mammals would be better served to have more forage available to wildlife especially to survive hard winters. Allowing sheep grazing is especially hard. Why should one rancher profit for a lifetime when an increase in herds and thus tags would benefit hundreds annually?
And now to outfitters - first of all I highly respect Rob Wiley and think he is a great spokesperson for the mule deer herd in this area. But I have had my fair share of disappointing run-ins with young guides in these units. The majority of the better bucks in these units that are harvested are scouted all summer and taken out by outfitters clients. I honestly don't agree with it anymore. There was a time where it had a place, but I no longer believe that outfitters should get continual permits to operate on public lands. It's gotten to the point where many hunters are harassed by these guides and it doesn't allow everyone with a tag to have a fair shake at better bucks. If the outfitting stopped, more big bucks would survive and less pressure would be placed on the herds year round. Scouting packages are no more than outfitted hunts so I don't understand why outfitting is allowed but not the scouting. Again, it's not in the best interest of all of the public land owners.
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Sure seemed based on the Instagram posts of a guide that a certain Utah client famous for starting a door to door selling business paid to have a guide in the hills sitting on a big non-typical for quite some time. I don't know the remedy, but I hope the Utah posse hunt system doesn't keep spreading to surrounding states. It's getting to the point that I don't think some of these guys could actually kill a forkie on their own if their life depended on it.
 
OMB said:
Sure seemed based on the Instagram posts of a guide that a certain Utah client famous for starting a door to door selling business paid to have a guide in the hills sitting on a big non-typical for quite some time. I don't know the remedy, but I hope the Utah posse hunt system doesn't keep spreading to surrounding states. It's getting to the point that I don't think some of these guys could actually kill a forkie on their own if their life depended on it.
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This goes on in every state. I've had some good elk hunts in the mentioned units that were interrupted by guides sitting on deer for the September opener....
 
Cowbell said:
I want to bring up something that is totally not being talked about enough in all of these debates. We are in a new era of public land hunters and tag demand. I think game managers and public land overseers are not taking into account the demand increase for use of our public lands and the game resources they provide. This is important because I think we need to see an overall shift and how we allocate use of our public lands in relation to taxpayer benefit. I really think we need to take a hard look at permitted grazing and permitted outfitting.
Is it really in the best interest of taxpayers to allow a select few to profit on our lands ever year? I'm a rancher myself and understand how grazing permits and allotments work. But as a hunter and public land owner, I believe our wildlife populations are second tier to grazers in most areas. I believe the public tax payer as well as other grazing mammals would be better served to have more forage available to wildlife especially to survive hard winters. Allowing sheep grazing is especially hard. Why should one rancher profit for a lifetime when an increase in herds and thus tags would benefit hundreds annually?
And now to outfitters - first of all I highly respect Rob Wiley and think he is a great spokesperson for the mule deer herd in this area. But I have had my fair share of disappointing run-ins with young guides in these units. The majority of the better bucks in these units that are harvested are scouted all summer and taken out by outfitters clients. I honestly don't agree with it anymore. There was a time where it had a place, but I no longer believe that outfitters should get continual permits to operate on public lands. It's gotten to the point where many hunters are harassed by these guides and it doesn't allow everyone with a tag to have a fair shake at better bucks. If the outfitting stopped, more big bucks would survive and less pressure would be placed on the herds year round. Scouting packages are no more than outfitted hunts so I don't understand why outfitting is allowed but not the scouting. Again, it's not in the best interest of all of the public land owners.
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Bless you!
 
As far as the grazing issue I agree. I had to plan my approaches this year around cattle. That was the number one issue. Not people but f***ing cows. And they always run right where you don’t want them too.
 
I agree with your thoughts on grazing. I outfitted where my neighbor had a grazing permit for his cattle. That I can live with. But the problem was no enforcement of the regulations. Too many cattle out there and not removing them by the required date. They get around that by the allowance of stragglers. That number is 10% of the number they are permitted to have on national forest. But there’s no way to verify or document how many are still out there. The result was over grazing. But it’s a century old problem in what was originally a ranch based community and you will NEVER change it.

I had every bale of hay that took weeks to pack in for the season eaten in a half day by stragglers. Way more stragglers than there should be. I called the forest service and their reply is always the same like it’s a recording: He’s not breaking any rules you guys need to get along.

As far as outfitters it’s always interesting to me to see how people with an opinions they strongly believe in don’t take a minute to look at things from other perspectives. Yes an outfitter profits from operating on public land. But he was asked to do so by someone from the public who wants to enjoy the land just like everyone else but they don’t have the way and means to do it without assistance. This is also something that has gone on for a hundred years. What makes you say it no longer has a place? The hunter has to draw the license. Wyoming has no outfitter set aside licenses. Should diy hunters like us have preference when it comes to land use?

What about the other businesses doing business on public land? Fishing guides, horse rides, tour guides, rock climbing guides and mountain bike tours? Or don’t they matter because they aren’t competing for the same resources?

Outfitters don’t bother me. Yes they eliminate a drainage or 2 from my options. But they are easy to work around. My perspective when I see a guide pull up to my trailhead and unload 4 horses and 2 city slickers is that I feel sorry for him. Elk hunting is tough enough without having a ball and chain or two around your ankle. The guide might be tough but he’s limited by the abilities of his hunter. His out of shape unacclimated hunter.

I draw the line at special consideration known here as outfitter welfare. That’s when politics get involved with hunting. Having outfitter sponsored licenses, allowing outfitters to utilize landowner tags, and the bullshit wilderness restriction are not fair. I’m into equal opportunity when it comes to licensing and public land access. As long as an outfitter and his hunters are on the same playing field as me I can live with them. A guided hunter is no different to me than any other hunter. Same goes with ranchers. The rules are the rules. Their rules are different but I have to accept that. Most of them don’t hunt. I like that!

That said… don’t let Rob Wiley fool you. He speaks up for mule deer because it benefits him. If he was guiding trophy opossum hunts he’d be a spokesman for opossums and wouldn’t give a shit about the deer. He probably exploits the deer more than anyone. He’s not winning any popularity contests in the Star Valley.
 
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Ethan_johnss said:
Interesting why a “great” deer unit is OTC for residents and takes many points for nonres
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Because they live there. Period. They have always hunted there and they are factored into the management plan. The deer hunting is still good so the plan is working. Otherwise we wouldn’t be talking about it.

The reason it takes so many points has nothing to do with Wyoming resident hunters. It’s me and you and the increasing number of non resident hunters competing for the NR tags that is causing that.

I personally think there should be antler restrictions there. It affects everyone equally. That’s just my opinion as a hunter who is not looking for meat when it comes to deer. I’m a bone collector! But I talked to Gary Fralick the biologist about that and he said it wouldn’t matter because they aren’t seeing a significant amount of small deer being killed.

The other thing that F&G will tell you is that hunting isn’t the number one factor in the quality and quantity of deer. It’s old man winter.
 
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