Diet

[Becca]

Bnsafe, I will certainly will defer to Robby or Les on this (they have a lot more knowledge and training than I do), but it seems to me that 185lbs is a pretty reasonable weight given your height. The numbers you provided indicate a body mass index of 23 which is within the healthy weight range (I am not a huge fan of BMI but it does serve as a useful tool in that it can give a range of healthy weights based on height). Take 10 people of the same height and at healthy weights, and you are going to see a fair amount of variety in how their frames are built and how they carry their body mass. I am 5'3, and the healthy weight range for a woman my height is listed by the NIH as 111-147lbs....that is a pretty vast range, and I can tell you that as a girl with curves who builds muscle rapidly, I will never weigh 111 pounds unless I am seriously ill, but that 147 is pushing overweight on my body frame. Given my build and frame I am probably at my peak performance someplace closer to the midrange, around 130-135lbs. No amount of calorie restriction or working out is going to give me the frame of a 90 lb ballerina, and I doubt I would have any endurance at that low weight either

 

[bnsafe]

thanks becca, that was kinda what i was asking. at some point, except for literally starving yourself, you hit a wall and stop. i may be wrong but im a believer that genetics plays a role in how much you weigh. my brother is 6'2 and ways around 300, mostly muscle. i have very little muscle. yep, my weight is fine for my ht, but i have a nice covering for my abs, and i would like to have abs. with that said im also 41 (dont tell my mind, it doesnt know that) so im sure that doesnt help me.

 

[robby denning]

bnsafe.
I don't want to ruffle your feathers, but there is no way you are AVERAGING 1500 calories per day over that length of time (same with you Jax) unless you've got the world's slowest metabolism, which you very likely don't.

In years of testing metabolism with medical grade equipment (Metacheck, see korr.com,) the lowest we've seen for a man was around 8.5 calories per pound per day, so at 182 pounds, even he would require 1547 calories per day at rest (still more than you think you are eating).

Add in the amount of exercise you stated and you are taking in way more than 1500 per day. I'd estimate your are averaging at least 2500 per day if you are exercising like you say.

Do not take this as an accusation that you are lying. I see this same scenario every week with our clients and invariably, we find they are eating more calories than they think once we have them weigh/measure everything they eat over a few weeks.

With the numbers you posted, an average metabolism would have you around 125 pounds in a few months time.

Jax makes my point in his post about living off the grid and he got to 140 pounds. Doesn't matter that it was when he was younger, metabolism doesn't drop much between 20 and 70 years, he was lower because he was either eating less or moving more while off the grid (you've got to tell us about that experience some time!)

There is no point where the body stops losing fat if calories in are less than required to maintain that weight. Millions of people around the world are dying from starvation and they've found no way to stop fat loss or they'd be alive now. Jews in the blockaded ghettos of World War II were documented to be eating 600 or so calories per day and were dead in a few months. Most of the calories we require are burned in the major organs, (heart, liver, brain, etc) and these machines don't stop requiring calories just because we are not eating. This is one of the biggest myths in the weight loss industry and there is no credible evidence to support it in the good data. What keeps driving it is people honestly thinking they are eating a low amount of calories when in reality, they are not.

Becca, you're right on with BMI and that is how we use it- as a guideline.

 

[bnsafe]

absolutely no ruffled feathers at all. i appreciate you taking your time to teach the rest of us this stuff.

 

[Jax]

thanks Robby

I started a thread here as well http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?1096-What-am-I-doing-wrong

all I do is count the calories and read labels of what I eat, I use proportions and a measuring cup. When I work out, other than riding stationary bike I have no idea how many calories a day I burn.

I just don't get how guys in prison or the military get 3 square meals a day, workout 6 days a week and get results where as some of us can not.

I am really at the point of flipping my routine on it's head and eating 3000 clean calories a day and lifting like a mad man to get my metabolism to go crazy. I have 2 friends who are body builders, one pro and one amatuer. They lift hard 6 days a week, little cardio, eat like mules and have incredible lean muscular bodies.

 

[Becca]

Robby, I think you hit on a really important point with regard to counting caloric intake. Even if you are diligent in your record keeping, it's hard to accurately quantify all the things I eat. In fact the easiest stuff to count is the single serving, prepackaged stuff--the exact processed food I am trying to decrease my intake of from a health standpoint! Using measuring cups and a kitchen scale helps to a certain degree, but it is still a challenge. Factor in the fact that most of the protein in our house is from game meat without a food label, and it's hard to estimate. I did find some nutrition info online for moose, deer and fish, but caribou and mountain goat data has been hard to come by

Thanks for all the great info, and discussion...it continues to be inspirational and though provoking!

 

[robby denning]

Jax, someone in a post mentioned genetics and I didn't go into that, but genetics are a big part of all this. Your friends you mention are probably mesomorphs (body type with propensity for leanness and naturally more muscle) as most sucessful bodybuilders are. From bodybuildingpro.com:
The MESOMORPH
•Athletic
•Hard Body
•Hourglass Shaped (Female)
•Rectangular Shaped (Male)
•Mature Muscle Mass
•Muscular Body
•Excellent Posture
•Gains Muscle Easily
•Gains Fat More Easily Than Ectomorphs
•Thick Skin

I'm not telling you to eat more calories at all and don't recommend you just eat more either as the other myth out there is that eating raises your metabolism to the point you burn more fat. NOT true! About 10% of your calories have to go to digesting food, so some of your metabolism burns calories that way, but only about 10%.

I wish I could get you and bnsafe with a top trainer and have 6 months to apply this stuff. I certainly don't want to discourage you, just trying to get you the info that keeps your eye on the ball so to speak.

If you haven't had your body fat % checked by a pinch caliber, hydrostatic or bod pod, you're also missing part of the equation. Most guys look great between 8 and 16% bodyfat. Hve you had yours checked?

If guys like that eat fairly clean, and lift, they usually put the rest of us to shame.

 

[robby denning]

Becca,
the great thing with calories, you don't have to be exact, and for that matter, can't expect to be exact. However, unless you know what you require, what you burn, and what you eat in calories, you will struggle.

I think you've made the meat thing way too hard. Have you noticed that most game meats run about 35-45 calories per ounce (they do). So if you just take an average of 40 calories per ounce for wildgame, you can easily estimate all kinds of meat from mountain goat to deer to wild hogs.

Fish will run about the same as an average, but Salmon/trout, because of the higher fat content (healthy Omega 3 fats by the way) will run about 60 calories per ounce.

Average red meat (non game) averages 70-80 calories per ounce with some much higher (prime rib= 120 calories per ounce). Big difference!

Here is an example from my tracking today.

Frosted 100% whole grain Mini Wheats (ahhhhh sugar, but only 11 grams per cup) 2 cups = 400 calories, 10 gms fiber
Milk 1% 1 cup 100 calories
Banana large 4 grams fiber 140 calories

Grapes/blackberries 1 cup 4 grams fiber 100 calories
whole wheat pasta 3 cups w/ 1/2 cup tomato sauce 12 grams fiber 620 calories
apple 5 grams fiber 80 calories

Homemade chowmein (no noodles) 2.5 cups 5 grams fiber, 150 calories per cup = 375 calories
Whole wheat roll 1.5 ounces 4 grams fiber 150 calories (secret, most bread are 100 calories per ounce)
Wheat thins whole grain crackers with 1/2 cup salsa 6 grams fiber 150 calories

And the kicker....
1 Krispy Creme donut for desert 280 calories, zero, yes zero fiber

Total calories 2400; 50 grams fiber and I'm full!

I require 2200 at rest and burn about 400 per day, so 2600 is about right for me and with highs on the weekend, I will average that (I weigh 184, 5'9" and 15% body fat).

I only spent about 5 minutes to track all this because I only had to look up/measure the chow mein. Everything else I ate in bowls/cups I've used enough to know the serving size. Notice all my calories are rounded to the nearest 10- why? Because I've done it long enough (takes a few months) that I can estimate pretty close with only having to look up a few things.

The only other option is to do a diet that limits you to a few foods, and eat just those. You'll notice those food lists rarely include carbs so by design, calories consumed drop considerably and people lose weight UNTIL they tire of eating that way which a high percentage do.

I'd much rather do what the good data says and learn how to eat from a wide variety of foods so I can stay with it (and budget in a Krispy Creme here and there- about 1 per week for me). Much more sanity for me.

summary: you will never get your calories exact, but the good news is they don't have to be exact for healthy eating and weight management- just close.

 

[outdoor hunter]

I just started working it 5 days a week with a co worker of mine and he told me about this app (my fitness pal) I have it on my iPhone and iPad it's VERY easy to use. Tracks calories burned and gained. Check it out, you'll be glad you did.

 

[Becca]

Awesome Robby! I had never thought about the game meats that way, it really helps! I have noticed how I tend to eat the same or similar foods with some freq, and that I know about how many calories they are "worth". Plus I have to love a lifestyle Nutrition plan (I don't want to use the word "diet") that incorporates Krispy Kreme! Sure wish we could get those up here (people occasionally fly them up when someone is travelling back from the lower 48 and use them for fundraisers, and they usually sell out!). I like a glass of red wine several nights a week, and so that's usually where my "fun" calories end up going...

 

[Becca]

I just started working it 5 days a week with a co worker of mine and he told me about this app (my fitness pal) I have it on my iPhone and iPad it's VERY easy to use. Tracks calories burned and gained. Check it out, you'll be glad you did.

Been using it for awhile, isn't it awesome??

 

[Jax]

I can't blame genetics because my whole family is tall and slender and mainly ectomorphs

The one friend who is a pro, his father was a body builder but the other who is just an amatuer was smaller and skinnier than me in high school. He is more like a mini ectomorph but is built like popeye, he also eats fastfood every day and never gets fat.

I have not had my body fat checked since I was in high school. I can pinch my stomach and love handles which is enough for me to say something isnt working. I also have fat stores on my abdominal wall.

I eat like a caveman and have made working out my 2nd job and I still weigh/look the same as Jan 1st of this year

Robby, I think you hit on a really important point with regard to counting caloric intake. Even if you are diligent in your record keeping, it's hard to accurately quantify all the things I eat. In fact the easiest stuff to count is the single serving, prepackaged stuff--the exact processed food I am trying to decrease my intake of from a health standpoint! Using measuring cups and a kitchen scale helps to a certain degree, but it is still a challenge. Factor in the fact that most of the protein in our house is from game meat without a food label, and it's hard to estimate. I did find some nutrition info online for moose, deer and fish, but caribou and mountain goat data has been hard to come by

Thanks for all the great info, and discussion...it continues to be inspirational and though provoking!

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

I LOVE this thread. Thanks to Robby and everyone else who's posting here. This is great information.

I just started using myfitnesspal also. It's not as difficult as I thought it'd be.

Robby,

As far as the steps are concerned I've summarized the following, is this correct?

1) Track your calories (eye opener!)
2) Drink 100 oz. water a day ( wow can I pee!)
3) F&V- eat 5-8 for a women's recommendation (3-5 veggies and 2-3 fruits) and 5-10 for a man's recommendation (based on stated caloric values right?)

Like Dew mentioned my numbers for macronutrients are pretty crazy in comparison to the daily goal listed on myfitnesspal.com but I've been able to keep the calorie goal. Is it safe to trust the daily goal numbers for macronutrients in myfitnesspal? Or is that something I don't need to worry about right now as mentioned in post #36. I'm trusting that by the time I've incorporated the recommended steps that the recommended % for nutrients will be in line. Focus and patience right?

 

[robby denning]

Cindy!
1) calories are king for weight loss
2) the 100 oz water per day is on the high end for your body weight, but if you are exercising moderately 1 hour per day, then 100 oz about right. Non exercise day probably 64 ounces enough. Hot weather makes these number climb, too.
3) right on with the F&V

Glad you like the app. I don't want to minimize the importance of the macronutrients, but I'm trying to give this info out in manageable steps and managing the macronutrients along with the calories is tough to do. You will find by the time this thread is complete, the macronutrients will take care of themselves without counting them. You don't realize it, but we've already taken care of a big part of the carb macronutrient by focusing on 5-8 F&V, and never had to count a carb. Just hang on.

 

[robby denning]

Becca, glad you liked the Krispy Kreme addition. Seriously, though, I checked my food records and the last time I had one was April 2nd, so 16 days between them. The idea behind all this is moderation. If someone eats terribly, none of this will seem moderate at first, but if you are into the really restrictive diets, this will seem like freedom.

 

[robby denning]

Jax,
don't compare yourself to those guys too much until you are doing exactly what they are doing.

I read your thread referenced above. I don't want to hijack the thread DEW started, but I'll diverge a little bit here for your sake. What I'm going to put out is not eating for health and a healthy weight as I've been discussing, so I really don't recommend it for anybody, BUT, if you're all hung up on being ripped and strong (seems to be what you're saying in your thread,) and aren't so concerned with eating well overall, then do this for 12 weeks to drop body fat:

Weeks 1-4:
Eat 215 grams protien (lean sources only so wild game, fish, white meat chicken, low fat pork)
Eat 215 grams carbohydrates (no added sugar, so whole grain bread, high fiber cereal/bagel/pasta, Fruits/Vegetables, no juices)
Eat no more than 50 grams fat
Drink 1 gallon of water per day.

Weeks 5-8 drop protien/carbs to 200 grams each, drop fat to 45 grams

Weeks 9-12 drop protien/carbs to 190 grams each, drop fat to 40 grams.

Don't count calories.

Drop all your cardio from your workout described in your thread and pasted here except with notes:

Mon- Fri
-Hike incline trails with weighted pack 20lbs-50lbs for 1 hour. Stop this
-Lift weights at home, different parts each day until failure for 1 hour Keep this, hit each muscle group 2 times/week 10 sets/muscle group/workout, except arms/shoulders/abs, limit to 4 sets/workout 8-12 reps per set
-Cross Country run on grass, 2-4 miles. drop this to 2 days per week maximum

Sat-Sun
-Stationary bike, 30-40 min until I burn 300-350 calories. Stop this
-Combat training, all body parts only using own body weight, for 1 hour Stop this

Follow weigh-in advice I've already provided. Figure out a way to get your body fat tested (pinch caliper) now, week 6 and 12 or you'll be confused.

In the training world, there are two principles you are missing from your training: Periodization and Specificity. You are trying to do all things at once and is why you're frustrated.

I won't guarantee you results because I'm not there with you to ensure you stay with this very restrictive diet and can't moniter your workout intensity, but can say that many of the dozens of people, male and female, we've done this with gets sub 8% body fat male and sub 12% female and lower. Not healthy, not recommended, but does work if you can handle it. Most can't.

At week 13, it will be time to add carbs back in (limited amount) and change resistance routine for more strength (you probably won't gain any strength first 12 weeks and might lose some.)

There's your poison.

 

[les welch]

Dang Robby it sure is nice to have someone else that understands this stuff. I've worked so many other forums and never had anyone that was on the same page as me, I love it.

Guys Robby knows what is going on here, there is a wealth of knowledge in this thread. Take it, digest it, fit it to YOUR application and as Cam says be better today than yesterday, that' s all you can ask of yourself!

 

[Broken Arrow]

I am not so sure about the calorie thing? Before I started working out I smoked pack and a half a day drank 3 fiths of jack a week and ate what I wanted when I wanted. I'm talking a large thin crust pizza every week ice cream cake fast food more than home cooked meals etc. I feel better now that I've been working out an eating better quit smoking and drink on occasion and weight the same. If I do a lot of cardio I lose weight but get weak from muscle lose. I really don't know what else to do I'm 5'8" and 168lbs. I only have that spare tire that I can't get rid of.

 

[robby denning]

Thanks Les, you know how it is, spend enough time in the industry and make enough mistakes, you learn a few things.

 

[robby denning]

Broken Arrow, smokers notoriously enjoy the benefits of nicotine and it's appetite supressing abilities. Better off not to be smoking, though