Diet

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
Jax PM'd me because he didn't want to hijack thread- no worries, I'll get back to DEW's questions and the original purpose of this thread today. Jax said in his PM:

My goal is strength to weight ratio which means lean and mean not big and bulky. I figured that if I ate healthy combined with weightlifting and cardio my true body would naturally show itself again. However, the routine of eating healthy and working out has not yielded any changes in my bodies appearance. Sure I can hike harder and farther but I figured I would atleast look better physically after putting forth so much effort for both the physical demands and dietary changes I've made.

In regards to your post
-is this considered a cutting routine?
-why cut all cardio? will I be too weak to do it? 2 days of running seems like nothing
-should I stop protein drinks post workout?
-when should my last meal be? at dinner, after dinner? before a specific time?

are BMI calculators inaccurate? If so I will pick up a caliper instead to measure

I lived in Thailand for 3 years, ate a very limited diet and stayed around comfortably at 160lbs.
I now weigh 215lbs and I have packed on more muscle but obviosuly did it very wrong and unhealthy

I want to clean the slate so to speak and build my body new but correctly this time

Thanks for your help, I appreciate your time very much
-Jax


Your questions were partly answered in my first post to you. You are trying to do all things at once: great cardio, more muscle, and low body fat. That is your mistake and the mistake of many. You can't do all at once (study periodization and specificity). Since you seem most obsessed with your appearance not changing and not what is going on on the inside, I gave you the program for changing appearance first. I even told you it isn't the healthy way. The great cardio and muscle gain will have to wait 12 weeks. Just how it is.

It's like you want to be the star athlete and not do what the star athletes do. That is why you can't compare yourself to your bodybuilding friends- you aren't them and likely aren't doing what they do. I have several pro-bodybuilders (drug free), and other top athletes on my staff/cleint list, and trust me, they spent years of incredible discipline to get where they are, not just since January.

Your questions:
1) yes, this will drop body fat (that's what you've been complaining about)
2) I'm cutting most of your cardio for two reasons: 1- you won't have enough carbs/energy/calories to sustain and 2- you can't expect muscle trained for endurance to also be bigger (hypertrohy) at the same time. You're asking for the impossible.
3) Don't stop the protein drinks- you're going to need them to hit 215 grams protein per day unless you're a caveman.
4) When last meal? That reminded me I forgot something in the first thread concerning meal frequency:

You need to divide the numbers I gave you over 5 or 6 meals per day. When you do that, last meal timing only needs to be at least an hour before bed. Also, you can include one meal per week that doesn't follow the guidelines, as long as it doesn't contain more than 1,000 calories from any source (I'll tell you up front, most people can't stop at 1,000- so beware as it will cancel several days of progress.)

5) BMI calculators innaccurate? Not really, but they are just a guideline and become less applicable to fit people who maintain more muscle than the sedentary crowd.(I'm consdired overweight on BMI, but healthy male on body fat%) You need body fat% tested if you want to play with the big dogs. Once you have that, I can at least tell if you're cheating your diet and give you feedback based on your numbers.

Finally, you made my whole point in your comment about living in Thialand 3 years at 55 pounds lighter than now. Trust me, that culture promotes thinness with food and activity levels and low stimulis to eat. You lived on fewer calories and burned more than is possible in everyday American life. That is why I promote lifestyle change vs dieting like I gave you above. In case you didn't catch on, this is a diet unsustainable to most people, but give her hell, she does work!

I'm about out of time on this and want to help DEW. Best of luck Jax. If you could find a trainer that knew all this stuff that could train you 2-4 times per week, you'd have a better chance for success, as most lone rangers can't follow everything to the "t" as I laid out, but some can.
 

Broken Arrow

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
230
Location
Grain valley, Mo
Robby that's just it, I have done a lot of not good things to my body. Drinking smoking late night parties eating a lot of fast food and eating up and down the calorie scale depending on my mood. I have weighed the same since my early 20's even if I do nothing more than lounge around. Every male in my family has the Santa belly but me. I have a mountain bike tire of fat around my belly that I just can't seem to rid myself of I have stopped smoking and eat good not completely clean but 100 times better than before. Since I started working out I am stronger have better endurance am more flexible but still weight the same and have that spare tire that won't go away. What advice do u have for me?
 

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
Broken Arrow, you're one of those people who can maintain weight regardless of composition of diet- but trust me, you're way better off now than before. Advice for you, or anyone who wants to follow the intent of this thread: achieve healthy weight in a healthy way and be able to sustain that weight, See posts 10,14,22.

That's the best I can do for the masses.

If you can find a trainer who knows this stuff, that is the gold standard in support and motivation. Many trainers don't, though and only apply what worked for them to clients so beware.
 

Jax

FNG
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
24
I appreciate the time it took to post this- but why all the little jabs at me? That didn't really seemed called for.

I am not "obsessed" with my appearance, I would like to feel better and look better physically- and who wouldn't?

I am not sure how trying to increase my strength-to weight ratio and reduce my body fat makes me reach for the impossible. During basic, the military drill instructor doesnt say "ok recruits for the next 12 weeks we are going to work on your cardio, then the next 12 your strength- your body can't do both at the same time so we can't mix them together."

Your right, I was no star athelete, both my freinds played football, wrestled, weight lifted. I guess I spent most of my time grieving my dead mother, taking care of my litte sister and trying to avoid getting beaten by my alcoholic father, I guess I didn't have the desire or discipline for all of those star athelete activities.

I guess when people ask you for free advice and arn't writing you a check every week we are just "complaining" all the time

It's odd how some people who know more than you try to make you look foolish for not knowing all the right answers. I do not appreciate being belittled simply because I did not understand the cryptic language of a trainer and asked follow up questions. Which is why I chose to PM you privately to respect the initial poster and the topic of the thread.

Last time I post in this corner of the forum asking for any help.
 

WV Hunter

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
116
Location
West "By God" Virginia
Imma just leave this here:

Rokslide Forum Rules



The Rokslide forums are all about sharing information and communicating with others in a positive, upbeat atmosphere. Our forum posting rules are very simple: no whining, crying, sobbing, bitching, sniveling, sulking, bickering, complaining, or pouting! If you feel compelled to do any of the above, there are plenty of other website forums out there that allow such behavior. Now that you understand our rules, post away and enjoy!
 

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
Jax,
My apologies for coming across the way you described.

the "jabs" aren't jabs, just clarifying how you are coming across and get your attention on what you are really asking for: Ultra fitness in a few months time.

I honestly pointed out what athletes do different than the rest of us (including me in the "rest of us") to get where they are. Reading your posts and thread, you seem to be asking for the same thing they have and I gave you a path to reach that.

If you'd rather follow your military drill instructor, just remember he was trying to make you mostly an endurance athlete and as you pointed out, your routine which is lots of endurance training, wasn't working.

Just telling you the truth here. I'm sorry if I made you feel belittled.

WV hunter, don't know who the rules you posted were intended for, but I helped write those rules and have stayed within them.
 
Last edited:

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
DEW my man! We are back. Got diverted a little, but thought it would be good for you to see the different approaches out there so I diverged. However, I still stand by what I started with you. I'd rather have a client lose weight slowly while eating healthy (as supported by clinical trials as there's lots of misguided claims on the word "healthy") and have a chance of keeping the weight off for life than cut to some low body fat level that only a few people seem to be able to sustain.

For those of you just getting on, or you got lost in all this, the heart of this thread and what I'm presenting is contained in post #'s 10, 28, and 40 if you want to get caught up or refocused.

The whole reason I've dedicated hours and hours to this thread is because if I can help people avoid heart disease (#1 killer of men AND women in America) and reduce cancer rates (#2 or #3 killer in America depending on data used), then I haven't wasted the breath that God gave me.

No body worries much about a heart attack until they have one, then that is all they worry about. 30-year olds who want to conquer the biggest mountain forget that if they get cancer, they won't be going up anything but the elevator at the hospital. The guidelines I've given might not get you to 8% body fat, but you will achieve a healthier weight and have better than a snowstorm's chance in hell of maintaining it.

STEP 3: Healthy Fats

Despite what you may have heard about fat, it isn't all bad. Good science has shown that fat can be good, bad, or neutral. Understanding fat can help you enjoy a better tasting diet and statistically lower your chance of disease. The low-fat trend of the 90's failed because it didn't full educate Americans about fat, but only made them fat-phobic.

The problem with fat, from any source, is it the highest in calories of all the macronutrients:
1) fat = 9 calories per gram
2) carbs (any source) = 4 calories per gram
3) protien = 4 calories per gram
4) alcohol = 7 calories per gram
4) water = 0 calories per gram

As you can see, it is 125% higher in calories than the protein and carbs. So you have to be careful or you take in too many calories too fast when you eat it.

The second problem from fat is related to it's source: if it is an animal based fat (saturated) or trans fat (man made fat found in hydrogenated vegetable oil created by super heating the oil causing it to take on an extra hydrogen atom- hence the term hydrogenated- and becomes a solid at room temperature) it is bad for the cardiovascular system (heart, arteries, vessels) and raises risk of heart disease, stroke, colon, prostate, and breast cancers. The best data out there supports this.

The only subset of saturated fat's risk that is disputed is the plant sources of saturated fat: cocoa butter, coconut products, and palm oils. The research is indicating (not conclusive yet) that these fats may be neutral or even good for us. Populations (around the equator) with large intakes of saturated fats from plant sources do NOT have high incidences of heart disease and cancers, unlike populations (Americans) with high intakes of saturated fats from animal sources.

Notice it seems to be the source of the saturated fat- plant vs. animal- that is the difference. This is just one of the reasons I've spoke out against the diets promoting high intakes of animal fat/protein and have promoted diets that are primarily plant based (not totally vegetarian) with carbs primarily coming from complex sources (whole grains, F&V, legumes)- people live longer, healthier, more quality lives.

This leads me to my whole point: The sources of fat that are plant based (and not processed like trans fat) are health promoting: olive oil, canola oil (cook/bake with these), flaxseed oil, and walnut oils (use in salad dressings, marinades).

The cold water fishes like Salmon, Trout,Mackerel, kippered herring, halibut, sardines, and Bluefin Tuna, also contain healthy fats known as Omega-threes which have positive effects on heart disease and inflammation.

Without making this post even longer, the reason the plant based fats (unprocessed) and the fish fats are good is because they are high in monounsaturated fats and Omega-3s. You can research why if you want.

Finally, the other plant-based fats from corn, peanut, sunflower, safflower, soybean, cottonseed, sesame, and hazelnut oils only have a limited benefit, but Americans get most of their oils from these sources. Again, the reasons are complex and you can research them, but trust me when I say we get too many of those fat sources vs. the olive, canola, flax walnut oils.

So, like F&V, healthy fats is a replacement theory. You take something out of the diet (saturated fats, trans fats) lessen the use of the corn, peanut, sunflower, safflower, soybean, cottonseed, sesame, and hazelnut oils AND replace with Olive, Canola, Flaxseed, and Walnut oils.

I haven’t had you count grams of any macronutrients, but it could be helpful here. Based on the 2450 calories per day I recommend for you, you cannot eat more than 90 grams of fat- no matter its source- and no more than 27 grams saturated fat from animal sources or 5 grams of trans fat PER DAY. Less is fine too all the way down to 54 grams per day all sources- sat fat & trans fat limit still the same at 27 grams & 5 grams

Till next time!
 
Last edited:

bnsafe

WKR
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
655
i pm robby and thanked him for all this info and encourage him to keep giving it to us. i, and im sure all of us, greatly appreciate it. i told robby while i was eating 1500 calories or less almost everyday after rechecking my calorie tracking, i was usually blowing it badlly on my " free day" the diet said i could have because i felt so hungry on saturdays after eating little all week. so while i was eating less all week, i was and am ruining it on saturdays. just thought i would share this info.
 
Last edited:
OP
D

DEW

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
213
Location
Kalispell,Montana
Robby I went back through my eating log and 1 day I was over on fat, I ate out that day. Other days I havent even been close to my fat allowance. Since im off work currently Ive been Doing the 12 cals x my weight (191)=2292 to this I add 5 days of working out at 750 per day for 3750. 2292x7=16044+3750=19794 divide that by 7=2827 subtract from this 1000 for weight reduction for a grand total of 1827 cals daily. should I add a few more calories since i dont just sit on my butt all day or is this close enough to start? Or should I just go with what MFP has recomended. The scale at the gmy crapped out but best I can figure so far is Ive lost 5-6 lbs, Ive got alot more energy. Awesome info from everyone that is contributing..Thank You DEW Should I just go with the percentage of Fats, Carbs and protien that MFP gives or do you recomend something different?
 

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
bnsafe- THANK YOU for honestly posting what the problem really was- one day of overage wiping out days of great behaviour- very common problem by the way and something I've personally struggled with.

Really appreciate you clearing this up as it gives people the truth that calories are king. If we can all just get that through our heads, then we are empowered to make needed changes to lose weight instead of living in a fog that we must be broken and can't lose weight. That is what many people think, but in truth they are just taking in more calories than they think (or often are not willing to admit.)

That is also why I don't advocate cheat days, as they can wipe out a week's worth of results. The data says that succesful weight managers eat pretty consistently (not perfect!) throughout all 7 days of the week. Those who don't understand calories soon turn a cheat meal into a cheat day and so on and so on.

Good news is you don't have to stay within a certain calorie level per meal so you can overeat occassionaly, as long as you understand you have to make those calories up somewhere-either by more activity, or smaller meals on another day. It really is all about moderation. Thanks for posting! Many wouldn't admit what you did. You've empowered someone today!
 

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
Robby I went back through my eating log and 1 day I was over on fat, I ate out that day. Other days I havent even been close to my fat allowance. Since im off work currently Ive been Doing the 12 cals x my weight (191)=2292 to this I add 5 days of working out at 750 per day for 3750. 2292x7=16044+3750=19794 divide that by 7=2827 subtract from this 1000 for weight reduction for a grand total of 1827 cals daily. should I add a few more calories since i dont just sit on my butt all day or is this close enough to start? Or should I just go with what MFP has recomended. The scale at the gmy crapped out but best I can figure so far is Ive lost 5-6 lbs, Ive got alot more energy. Awesome info from everyone that is contributing..Thank You DEW Should I just go with the percentage of Fats, Carbs and protien that MFP gives or do you recomend something different?

DEW, a few things:

First, great on the 5-6 pound loss over the last few weeks. The diet gurus think that is too slow, but you know how I feel about doing it slow- it will more likely stay off! Good to hear on the energy levels increasing, too.

I can't answer on the myfitness pal percentages because I don't know what they are based on- only advocated it for the calorie tracking. They might be fine, might not.

Questions?


1) On your fat intake, remember from post #87 I said 54 to 90 grams. Are you lower than 54?
2) On your workouts, how are you arriving at 750 burned? (just want to check for accuracy)
3) Your math looks good on the daily requirement to lose weight at 1827 per day. I want to remind you the 1000 calorie deficit in eating per day is pretty big deficit (usually produces 2 pounds fat loss per week + water losses initially), so even though you are sedentary, that is plenty of a deficit.
4) Are you hungry when trying to stay at 1800 per day?
5) Can you tell me what the myfitness pal percentages are?
 
OP
D

DEW

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
213
Location
Kalispell,Montana
A few days were lower.
Polar heart rate monitor
Don't know if I'm hungry I followed MFP recommendations till I re read through the post and found your recommendations on how to figure for my self. I'll let you know in a couple of days.
Carbs 55%
Fat 30%
Protein 15%
I wasnt disreguarding your recommendations just trying to figure it on. My own as you seem awfully busy. Thanks Dew
 
Last edited:

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
Oh no worries, I know there's tons of info out there and just want you to be able to focus.


1) if a few days were lower on the fat, you're doing great! By staying closer to the 54 grams, you'll just be able to stay lower on calories
2) polar heart rate monitor fine
3) You'll know if you're hungry. So you know, I don't want you to be and there could be a problem if you are and we can adjust if you are. Just stay in tune with body.
4) Those percentages don't add up to 100%?????? They have to add to 100% Let me know.
 

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
DEW, those percentages are just fine for now. There is actually a range of proper percentages and you are in the range. Adjustments only need to be made if hungry, low energy, etc.

but remember my mantra; calories are king!
 
OP
D

DEW

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
213
Location
Kalispell,Montana
I'm always over on Protein and seems I'm close to lower than 54 gr of fat. Is being that low on fat ok? How can I raise my fat without raising my protein? DEW
 
Last edited:

Ross

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
4,806
Location
Kun Lunn, Iceland
Robby, I have to say you know your ________! Fortunately I don't need any assistance at this time dropping poundage, but if I did I know where I wouldl go to get advice. Good work and information here.
 

robby denning

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
15,605
Location
SE Idaho
Thanks Ross, 20+ years in the industry and weight struggles of my own have forced me to learn this stuff.

DEW, don't worry right now about changing anything. You are close enough. That's why I start with calories for weight managment, then try and eat healthy and the percentages will take care of themselves. You're in the money now, just put your energy into planning your day so the good food choices are readily available. With no plan, you'll end up eating whatever comes along and that's rarely good.
 
Top