Dial vs BDC Reticle vs Holdover

[longrange13]

Wh

Where and what (and how) are you guys hunting that you dont have time to range and dial for most 350-400 yard shots? I honestly dont think Ive ever NOT had time to dial over about 200 yards. Not saying it won't happen, but my experience, short of getting the wind completely wrong, has been that the “norm” is past about 150 yards the animal rarely even knows I’m there, and Ive typically either had plenty of time to make a shot at those ranges or its been a situation where it was easy to plan ahead and be prepared for a longer shot through a narrower window. It also doesnt take more than a few seconds extra to range and dial for a 300-400 yard shot. A mpbr zero and being fast/simple makes perfect sense to me in some cases, I just havent been so rushed at those mid ranges before, so wondering what the big deal is being so fast there—i’d be curious if you folks are hunting in very different terrain or in a different way that your experience is so different.

Also, the folks talking about environmentals, outside of maybe huge elevation changes like going from 200’ to 6000’ elevation, are not talking about 300-400 yard shots.

Where I’m at in Utah hunting general season mule deer during the migration, the deer make their way into the juniper and sage. The blm has recently ground a bunch of the juniper so there are big pockets with nothing surrounded by dense juniper. There are a lot of road hunters and hunters in general in my unit. The deer are making their way about 20-50 miles from high country to low country in a 2-3 day time. Basically just hauling butt through as fast as possible. The big bucks typically only move at last light. When you add all this plus all the pressure from other hunters, when you glass one up you typically have less than a minute to shoot before he’s gone forever. Most shots are in that 250-400 yard range. This is why I use bdc turrets for most of my hunting, set for the elevation and temp I’m hunting. I know my holdovers to 400 yards and I can quickly range and dial from 400-650 without much thought. Beyond that I won’t shoot unless I have time to really dope the conditions.

Hunting more premium tags with less pressured animals I definitely have plenty of time to set up on the majority of animals past 200 yards.

 

[Macintosh]

Makes sense, and it is quite different from my typical.

although Ive never had a tag that cost me more than 2 points. (I WISH I was hunting premium units! )

 

[Rich M]

I grew up w dead hold. There were no dial or bdc scopes around at that time.

I got a bdc scope cause i got a 350 Legend and i only use the first hash at 250. Not really worth it. The marketing hype made it seem like i’d need 2-3 marks for that range…. Gonna swap it over to my ML and maybe work up a 200 yd load.

I like a simple bdc just a couple lines, those xmas tree ones make me dizzy.

Not gonna re-outfit my stuff for that or dial scopes, im old, set in ways pretty much. Been out west 2x and dead hold worked fine for 25, 350, 220 yd shots.

True long range would be dialing. Imo, BDC is for guys who might stretch it to 350-400 and want confidence.

 

[WCB]

Where and what (and how) are you guys hunting that you dont have time to range and dial for most 350-400 yard shots?

90% of the time I do...but a quick example would be western ND Whitetail rifle tag. was walking across a top when across a big draw a doe popped out running like being chased. Pack off gun on pack range finder in hand hit the doe just as she made it to the next patch of brush. The buck stepped into my range finder view and stopped at the edge of the shooting window right at 400yds. Head down on gun, flicked the safety off and dropped him in his tracks right on the edge of cover. He was looking right towards me as I squeezed off the shot his head swung around like he was leaving. The extra 2-3 seconds easily could have lost the opportunity.

But I agree most times beyond a couple hundred yards you have time.

 

[RWT]

Hunt south Texas senderos. Some gas/oil lines are only wide enough to drive a truck through

 

[wind gypsy]

The guy that "would have gotten a shot off with MPBR" but couldn't make a minor correction either using a reticle to hold over or by dialing probably doesn’t practice enough to make a good shot using MPBR anyway.

Pretty simple, ffp scope with mil reticle. From a 100 yard zero, 200 yards is usually around 0.4-0.5 mil up (I usually have .4 or .5 dialed in already for western hunts), 300 yards is usually 1.0-1.1mil up, and 400 is around 1.7-1.9. Hold over using mil reticle if making 1.9 mil or less adjustment to a turret is just too slow. Could be the same with a MOA based system. If someone wants to say they use MPBR beyond 400 yards I’d guess they aren’t worth taking advice from.

 

[JCMCUBIC]

One of the great things about a FFP scope with an elevation dial and a reticle that matches the adjustments is you can dial or you can hold or you can MPBR. You're not limited.

I think the best implementation of a BDC type reticle is Nightforce's Velocity 600. I use several of them (low and med versions) on different rifles. They work if you match your 0, bc, velocity, magnification, and conditions. ...but even being the "best" BDC, they're way...way...short of the functionality of a FFP, measured reticle with an elevation dial.

 

[DangerRanger]

Dialing and it’s not even close.

If you hunt at very different altitudes BDC reticles are asking for a disaster

 

[Macintosh]

I wouldnt say a reticle hold is a disaster for this topic, at least not in-context--the topic is WHERE it works and at what point it doesnt. I think we're talking mainly about using a reticle hold for 200-400 yard shots, not really past that range. Maybe I missed it but I dont recall many (any?) folks advocating for mainly using their reticle or a MPBR system past about 400ish yards. Just to show the effect of elevation on a reticle hold or dope though, on my main hunting rifle my 450 yard dope for 500' elevation is 2.3mils, at 7,000' it's 2.1 mils--that's only a 0.2mil difference (about 2 inches) in impact at 450 yards using the same reticle hold point with a 6,500' elevation gain. I agree past that range it starts getting pretty darn problematic pretty darn fast, and where it's possible it makes much more sense to dial using altitude-corrected data.
Also, me and at least a few others using a mid-range reticle hold in a situation where you dont want to dial for any reason, are using a graduated reticle (i.e. evenly spaced graduations at 1 mil or .5 mil, etc) not one of the reticles with a few hold points for specified ranges (i.e. a hold point for 200, 300, 400 yards and nothing else). That allows you to to still use a reticle hold if you wanted, but to correct it based on conditions/range when warranted. That's perhaps not what you meant by a "BDC", but...I never know what that term means, I see it used by various manufacturers and people to describe both types of reticles as well as to describe dial turrets.

 

[DangerRanger]

Also, me and at least a few others using a mid-range reticle hold in a situation where you dont want to dial for any reason, are using a graduated reticle (i.e. evenly spaced graduations at 1 mil or .5 mil, etc) not one of the reticles with a few hold points for specified ranges (i.e. a hold point for 200, 300, 400 yards and nothing else). That allows you to to still use a reticle hold if you wanted, but to correct it based on conditions/range when warranted. That's perhaps not what you meant by a "BDC", but...I never know what that term means, I see it used by various manufacturers and people to describe both types of reticles as well as to describe dial turrets.

That is my true definition of a “BDC reticle”

A reticle designed to compensate for the ballistic drop of a given bullet, not a standard reticle with consistent graduations that the shooter then applies to their situation.


someone that knows how to use holdovers within a proper reticle and re acquired data based on their elevation/situation is not what I’m talking about.

The time I saw it done was maybe a decade ago and it was at 550 yards with a rifle zeroed and proofed at sea level with a BDC reticle, that was fired at 9k. I understand this was due to ignorance, imo BDC reticles promote that ignorance (ignorance in the technical term)

 

[Overdrive]

I'm set up with dial and custom turrets on my big game rifles, don't see me every changing that.

I use mil dot scopes on my predator rifles because I don't need a $1600-$2500 turret scope on these rifles, they get tossed in the truck and go.

I tried the BDC scopes and there's just to many variables you can't adjust for as easily as a turret set up, IMO.

 

[Macintosh]

The time I saw it done was maybe a decade ago and it was at 550 yards with a rifle zeroed and proofed at sea level with a BDC reticle, that was fired at 9k. I understand this was due to ignorance, imo BDC reticles promote that ignorance (ignorance in the technical term)

100%
On my rifle, comparing sea level to 9,000' elevation, there is a .5mil difference in dope at 550 yards all other factors being identical, which is a 27.5cm difference in point of impact--almost exactly 11 inches. That's obviously plenty to cause a full-on miss on a deer, or a wounded elk even before you start factoring in the size of your normal group at that distance, your wobble, etc on top of that. I am in complete agreement that at that range simply using the same reticle hold (regardless of what type of reticle) with that much change in elevation is asking for trouble. Even dialing without correcting for elevation (i.e. a custom CDS turret used at a different elevation) has the exact same issue. I consider 550 yards a very long shot, it's past where I would shoot at a critter under almost any conditions. To me that has less to do with whether its dialed, held in a graduated reticle or a "BDC" reticle, it's a long-ass shot where small errors are compounded and some of the details that can be more or less ignored at shorter ranges (wind, elevation, wind...) really matter.

 

[DangerRanger]

100%
On my rifle, comparing sea level to 9,000' elevation, there is a .5mil difference in dope at 550 yards all other factors being identical, which is a 27.5cm difference in point of impact--almost exactly 11 inches. That's obviously plenty to cause a full-on miss on a deer, or a wounded elk even before you start factoring in the size of your normal group at that distance, your wobble, etc on top of that. I am in complete agreement that at that range simply using the same reticle hold (regardless of what type of reticle) with that much change in elevation is asking for trouble. Even dialing without correcting for elevation (i.e. a custom CDS turret used at a different elevation) has the exact same issue. I consider 550 yards a very long shot, it's past where I would shoot at a critter under almost any conditions. To me that has less to do with whether its dialed, held in a graduated reticle or a "BDC" reticle, it's a long-ass shot where small errors are compounded and some of the details that can be more or less ignored at shorter ranges (wind, elevation, wind...) really matter.

Right which is why starting with an 11 inch miss before you put ANY of the other struggles into the equation is just pretty close to a dumpsterfire.

I’m sure if you’re only hunting to 300 yards it’s not a big deal

 

[wytx]

BDC here and have never had an issue, from here in Wyoming to Texas hogs and deer.
Get a range and put the cross hairs on the animal, no dialing needed.

 

[The Guide]

None of it matters if you don't know your velocity and run the ballistics for the elevation you are at. I require all of my friends who travel to hunt with me to verify dope and velocity or shoot my rifles for anything past 300 yards. A zero at 200 yards at 1000' of elevation is far different than it would be at 7000' to 9000' on the mountain. Get to your hunting area early and verify your dope.

Jay

 

[Antares]

A zero at 200 yards at 1000' of elevation is far different than it would be at 7000' to 9000' on the mountain.

How much does your zero change between 1000 ft and 9000 ft?

 

[The Guide]

How much does your zero change between 1000 ft and 9000 ft?

I ran the ballistics on a couple of my profiles in Shooter and checked velocity at 100 yards at 1000' vs 9000' and it was an average of 60 fsp (standard cartridge) to 80 fps (magnum cartridge). It won't show a zero difference at 100 yards if you are defined as zeroed there but at 200 yards it was an average change of 0.5" between 1000' and 9000'.

Jay

 

[Antares]

Does a half inch matter?

 

[Macintosh]

1/2” at 200 is very approximately one click. 1.5” at 600 yards. Definitely not enough by itself to make a big diff, but maybe if you start talking hit probability when you stack it on top of all the other real-world errors (wobble, small ranging error, unaccounted-for shot angle, etc) i’d bet it makes more of a diff. Id be curious if someone can plug those numbers in to WEZ and quantify that a bit.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Get to your hunting area early and verify your dope.

Or calibrate the sensitivity factor in your calculator and then it's good anywhere in any weather.