Deer cartridges with minimal recoil

[Skydog]

So, I've been playing around with a recoil calculator and comparing the .243 Win., 6 ARC, and 6.5 Grendel. I used an 8 lb. gun in the calculation (for all three cartridges) and looked at a few different bullet weights, powder charges, and velocities for average/standard deer loads.

Recoil impulse (lb-sec): Very little difference...less than a 1/2 lb-sec between all of them.

Recoil velocity (fps): Again, not a huge difference...less than 2 fps between all of them.

Recoil energy (ft-lbs): A little over 3 ft-lbs of energy difference between the loads that I looked at.

Do these numbers/comparisons seem accurate?

Now, I don't have any idea how this translates to the real world. Is 3.3 ft-lbs of energy a noticeable/significant difference in recoil? Would a mere 3 ft-lbs of energy potentially have greater risk for causing more damage/pain in my neck and shoulder?

I would also suspect that most folks shooting the ARC/Grendel are using rifles lighter than 8 lbs., so that would narrow the gap between them and the .243 even more.

As a side note, going from my .270 to a .243 cuts the recoil by more than 1/2. There was a 10.5 ft-lb. difference. I shoot 150 grain loads in my .270.

 

[Teodoro]

I've actually been leaning toward a Howa 1500 Super Deluxe Walnut, or even just their standard walnut. I prefer the looks and stock profile of the Howa much more than the Vanguard sporter. I know they are both based on the same Howa 1500 action. Are there any disadvantages to the Howa as compared to the Vanguard?

I also like the Browning X-bolts.

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Maybe not a deal breaker, but a Howa-branded rifle will be supported by LSI, while a Weatherby-branded rifle will be supported by Weatherby. For example, LSI took forever to import some mags I needed, so I ended up having to buy them second hand. It was fine, but I feel like a better company would have just had them of available as aftermarket support.

 

[Skydog]

Maybe not a deal breaker, but a Howa-branded rifle will be supported by LSI, while a Weatherby-branded rifle will be supported by Weatherby. For example, LSI took forever to import some mags I needed, so I ended up having to buy them second hand. It was fine, but I feel like a better company would have just had them of available as aftermarket support.

Good to know. Thank you!

 

[Bluefish]

So, I've been playing around with a recoil calculator and comparing the .243 Win., 6 ARC, and 6.5 Grendel. I used an 8 lb. gun in the calculation (for all three cartridges) and looked at a few different bullet weights, powder charges, and velocities for average/standard deer loads.

Recoil impulse (lb-sec): Very little difference...less than a 1/2 lb-sec between all of them.

Recoil velocity (fps): Again, not a huge difference...less than 2 fps between all of them.

Recoil energy (ft-lbs): A little over 3 ft-lbs of energy difference between the loads that I looked at.

Do these numbers/comparisons seem accurate?

Now, I don't have any idea how this translates to the real world. Is 3.3 ft-lbs of energy a noticeable/significant difference in recoil? Would a mere 3 ft-lbs of energy potentially have greater risk for causing more damage/pain in my neck and shoulder?

I would also suspect that most folks shooting the ARC/Grendel are using rifles lighter than 8 lbs., so that would narrow the gap between them and the .243 even more.

As a side note, going from my .270 to a .243 cuts the recoil by more than 1/2. There was a 10.5 ft-lb. difference. I shoot 150 grain loads in my .270.

3.3 ftlbs isn’t much, but for these it might be 15-20% different. That will be noticeable. Moving to an AR vs a fixed breech will reduce felt recoil as the impulse is spread over more time. The recoil is the same but will feel like less.

 

[Skydog]

3.3 ftlbs isn’t much, but for these it might be 15-20% different. That will be noticeable. Moving to an AR vs a fixed breech will reduce felt recoil as the impulse is spread over more time. The recoil is the same but will feel like less.

I don't plan on moving to an AR if I can avoid it. I want to stick with a bolt gun if possible. Although I might consider a Browning BAR. Both the ARC and the Grendel are available in bolt actions.

And I am more concerned about actual recoil than felt recoil. As far as felt recoil is concerned, the recoil of my .270 has never bothered me. But I need to minimize actual recoil due to my neck and shoulder issues.

 

[nubbin]

So, I've been playing around with a recoil calculator and comparing the .243 Win., 6 ARC, and 6.5 Grendel. I used an 8 lb. gun in the calculation (for all three cartridges) and looked at a few different bullet weights, powder charges, and velocities for average/standard deer loads.

Recoil impulse (lb-sec): Very little difference...less than a 1/2 lb-sec between all of them.

Recoil velocity (fps): Again, not a huge difference...less than 2 fps between all of them.

Recoil energy (ft-lbs): A little over 3 ft-lbs of energy difference between the loads that I looked at.

Do these numbers/comparisons seem accurate?

Now, I don't have any idea how this translates to the real world. Is 3.3 ft-lbs of energy a noticeable/significant difference in recoil? Would a mere 3 ft-lbs of energy potentially have greater risk for causing more damage/pain in my neck and shoulder?

I would also suspect that most folks shooting the ARC/Grendel are using rifles lighter than 8 lbs., so that would narrow the gap between them and the .243 even more.

As a side note, going from my .270 to a .243 cuts the recoil by more than 1/2. There was a 10.5 ft-lb. difference. I shoot 150 grain loads in my .270.

I have a savage model 11 in 243 and with the Burris veracity scope and the steel rings it weighs almost 8.5 pounds. I can tell you that the recoil in that set up is very minimum. I shoot 95gr sst and 100gr interlocks out of it. If you had a .243 in that 8lb range and shot something like Barnes 80gr copper, it should be very mild recoiling rifle. The 6mm creed, ARC and other 6.5 wildcats will have less recoil, but availability with factory guns/ammo will be hard to find. You can find .243 ammo/rifles in just about any outdoor store.

 

[Marshfly]

I live about 1/2 hour from a Cabela's. Just out of curiosity, I checked their website for rifle and ammo availability:

Rifles:
42 in .243
1 in 6 ARC
2 in 6.5 Grendel
1 in 6 Creedmoor

Ammo options:
25 in .243
4 in 6 ARC
4 in 6.5 Grendel
10 in 6 Creedmoor

You only need to be concerned with the 108 ELDM for the 6ARC and 6 Creed. That's the easy button for all big game. And don't buy ammo in a store. Buy in bulk online. Search on ammoseek.com. 6ARC is what people wish 6.5 Grendel was. I don't see the point really.

You can't go wrong with either the Weatherby or Howa versions of the 1500 action. Buy the one where the stock fits you best.

That said, the 6ARC is available in the Mini action from Howa and once you handle a mini action everything will become clear. I would go out of my way to handle a mini before plunking down money.

With your need to minimize recoil as much as possible the 6ARC is your cartridge. And I would suppress it even though you said you didn't want to.

 

[Skydog]

You only need to be concerned with the 108 ELDM for the 6ARC and 6 Creed. That's the easy button for all big game. And don't buy ammo in a store. Buy in bulk online. Search on ammoseek.com. 6ARC is what people wish 6.5 Grendel was. I don't see the point really.

You can't go wrong with either the Weatherby or Howa versions of the 1500 action. Buy the one where the stock fits you best.

That said, the 6ARC is available in the Mini action from Howa and once you handle a mini action everything will become clear. I would go out of my way to handle a mini before plunking down money.

With your need to minimize recoil as much as possible the 6ARC is your cartridge. And I would suppress it even though you said you didn't want to.

I don't handload. So, I compared the Hornady factory load for the ELDM 108 gr. to what seems to be the most popular .243 load...the 95 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. I used the Winchester Ballistic Silvertip for the comparison.

With the above loads, the .243 matched or exceeded the velocity and energy of the 6ARC out to 300 yards (my max range), and it shot flatter out to 500 yards.

I then plugged the numbers for these loads into the recoil calculator. The 6ARC had only 1.64 ft-lbs less recoil. This was comparing guns of equal weight. In a heavier .243 vs a lighter mini action, the difference in recoil would be virtually non-existent.

So...the .243 is ballistically superior (slightly) with factory ammo, has a 70 year track record of killing deer (vs 5 years for the 6ARC), and has much greater versatility/availability/options in both rifles and ammo. And the difference in recoil between the two best deer rounds is somewhere between 0 and 1.64 ft-lbs.

So, is the appeal of the 6ARC due to the fact that it comes in mini actions and ARs?

 

[Marshfly]

I don't handload. So, I compared the Hornady factory load for the ELDM 108 gr. to what seems to be the most popular .243 load...the 95 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. I used the Winchester Ballistic Silvertip for the comparison.

With the above loads, the .243 matched or exceeded the velocity and energy of the 6ARC out to 300 yards (my max range), and it shot flatter out to 500 yards.

I then plugged the numbers for these loads into the recoil calculator. The 6ARC had only 1.64 ft-lbs less recoil. This was comparing guns of equal weight. In a heavier .243 vs a lighter mini action, the difference in recoil would be virtually non-existent.

So...the .243 is ballistically superior (slightly) with factory ammo, has a 70 year track record of killing deer (vs 5 years for the 6ARC), and has much greater versatility/availability/options in both rifles and ammo. And the difference in recoil between the two best deer rounds is somewhere between 0 and 1.64 ft-lbs.

You need to buy a 223 if you are splitting this many hairs IMHO and actual recoil is the number 1 issue. That's the ultimate answer here and it will easily and effectively will kill any deer on the planet.

There is ZERO difference in killing between a 243 and 6ARC with factory ammo at your distances. Zero difference between those and a 223 shooting 73 grain ELDM also. My recommendation is simply because the mini is such a unique rifle that you can't rule it out based on numbers alone. And like you say, you can get a lighter rifle and have the same recoil as a heavier 243.

But if you are stuck on the 243 it will certainly do the job. But it won't be the best for your goal of minimal recoil. The 223 is that cartridge.

 

[Skydog]

You need to buy a 223 if you are splitting this many hairs IMHO and actual recoil is the number 1 issue. That's the ultimate answer here and it will easily and effectively will kill any deer on the planet.

There is ZERO difference in killing between a 243 and 6ARC with factory ammo at your distances. Zero difference between those and a 223 shooting 73 grain ELDM also. My recommendation is simply because the mini is such a unique rifle that you can't rule it out based on numbers alone. And like you say, you can get a lighter rifle and have the same recoil as a heavier 243.

But if you are stuck on the 243 it will certainly do the job. But it won't be the best for your goal of minimal recoil. The 223 is that cartridge.

I don't want to go below .243/6MM. By "splitting hairs" with the comparison, I was just trying to understand what the argument for the 6ARC over the .243 is. Ballistically, I gain nothing by going to the 6ARC. In regard to recoil, I gain very little to nothing in the platform I want to use (traditional bolt action) by going to the 6ARC. However, I have a lot more rifle and ammo options with the .243 and it's likely that .243 would be much easier to find in the event of another ammo shortage.

I hunt from stands so weight is not an issue for me. I actually prefer a little heavier gun.

It seems like the only argument to be made for the 6ARC is that it can be had in a mini action. Everything else favors the .243. I'll have to get my hands on a mini action and see if that is a game changer for me. I've never held one.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

6 arc ballistics are adequate for what you need to do, and the recoil is less than 243. If you actually were using your own criteria this would be a super obvious choice for you.

For what it's worth, Ryan Avery just stoned a giraffe with a 6mm, so any thoughts you have that a 6 arc, 243, or 223 might not get the job done on a whitetail deer are completly debunked.

I'm checking out of this thread, you're trying to use data to justify an emotional decision that you've already made, and that's just not how the world is supposed to work.

 

[Skydog]

6 arc ballistics are adequate for what you need to do, and the recoil is less than 243. If you actually were using your own criteria this would be a super obvious choice for you.

For what it's worth, Ryan Avery just stoned a giraffe with a 6mm, so any thoughts you have that a 6 arc, 243, or 223 might not get the job done on a whitetail deer are completly debunked.

I'm checking out of this thread, you're trying to use data to justify an emotional decision that you've already made, and that's just not how the world is supposed to work.

According to the data and my criteria, I'd be giving up all the advantages of the .243 for a recoil difference of somewhere between 0 to 1.64 ft-lbs. That tiny difference in recoil in no way outweighs all the advantages of the .243 over the 6ARC. So, it's actually a perfectly rational decision based on data/research, not emotional at all. If you'd care to show me where my data/comparison is wrong instead of just "checking out" that would be more helpful.

I can see the appeal of the 6ARC for handloaders, AR/mini action users, etc. But for my intended platform and use, the .243 is the clear winner. If you look at the Howa 1500 walnut hunter models, the 6ARC mini action and the .243 weigh exactly the same (7.2 lbs.). So, the mini action might have a slightly shorter overall length than the .243, but other than that the dimensions seem almost identical. A slightly shorter OAL means nothing to me. And I hate the way the magazine extends below the stock on the mini action. So, from the perspective of ballistics, recoil, and mini action vs short action...there is simply no argument to be made for the 6ARC for my intended platform and use.

My desire to not go below .243/6MM is personal preference. I have no doubt that .223 is adequate for deer.

 

[Bugger]

The hangup is why you’re looking at minor ballistic superiority as if a deer is going to notice the difference within your 300y stated range when recoil is why you’re moving down in the first place. 243 is great, 6arc is great. 6 arc has less recoil all else equal. And sure there’s less factory offerings but who cares since the most common option (108 match) lays deer out with ease.

 

[Skydog]

The hangup is why you’re looking at minor ballistic superiority as if a deer is going to notice the difference within your 300y stated range when recoil is why you’re moving down in the first place. 243 is great, 6arc is great. 6 arc has less recoil all else equal. And sure there’s less factory offerings but who cares since the most common option (108 match) lays deer out with ease.

But I'm not only looking at minor ballistic superiority. I'm looking at all aspects. Overall, the .243 checks more boxes.

If you want to boil it down to just recoil and no other considerations...then I fully concede that the 6ARC wins by somewhere between 0 and 1.64 ft-lbs. But just like a deer won't know the difference between a .243 or a 6ARC, I don't think my shoulder/neck will notice the difference either.

 

[Formidilosus]

But I'm not only looking at minor ballistic superiority. I'm looking at all aspects. Overall, the .243 checks more boxes.

If you want to boil it down to just recoil and no other considerations...then I fully concede that the 6ARC wins by somewhere between 0 and 1.64 ft-lbs. But just like a deer won't know the difference between a .243 or a 6ARC, I don't think my shoulder/neck will notice the difference either.

6ARC with 108gr factory has 7.1 Ft-lbs of recoil:



243win with 108gr handload has 10.3 ft-lbs recoil energy:



That’s 32% less recoil.



If instead you want to use lighter bullets,

6 ARC with 80gr ELD-VT has 5.5 ft-lbs of recoil:




243win with 95gr NBT has 9.2 ft-lbs of recoil:



That is 40% less recoil.


There is zero functional difference in killing between any of those at 300 yards- yet one gives you 1/3rd or more less recoil.

 

[Skydog]

6ARC with 108gr factory has 7.1 Ft-lbs of recoil:
View attachment 828967


243win with 108gr handload has 10.3 ft-lbs recoil energy:View attachment 828968



That’s 32% less recoil.



If instead you want to use lighter bullets,

6 ARC with 80gr ELD-VT has 5.5 ft-lbs of recoil:
View attachment 828969



243win with 95gr NBT has 9.2 ft-lbs of recoil: View attachment 828970



That is 40% less recoil.


There is zero functional difference in killing between any of those at 300 yards- yet one gives you 1/3rd or more less recoil.

Thank for you for the additional data to compare.

So, comparing the 2 most popular deer rounds for each, your calculator shows a difference of 2.1 ft-lbs versus the 1.64 that my calculator showed.

Again, as I stated in a post above, I don't know how that translates in the real world? Would you say that 1.6 to 2.1 ft-lbs is significant? Would my neck/shoulder notice a difference between the .95 NBT (.243) vs the 108 ELDM (6ARC)?

 

[Ringbill27]

I went back and looked at the criteria you listed and you seem pretty set on the 243win, which has been a deer cartridge since day one. It seems like you don’t reload so you might as well pick up a tikka t3x hunter in 243win slap a 1-1.5lbs scope on it and you’ll be under 9lbs and shoot noslar 95gr BT. Throw a limbsavor air tech on it and your shoulder will be fine.

 

[Erik of Texas]

.243 or 6 Creedmoor would do well. Remember recoil is the equal but opposite reaction of the bullet being fired (action). Lighter projectiles and smaller powder charges will create less recoil all else being equal. But, short bullets dont penetrate as well as longer and heavier bullets. So lighter bullets that are longer will be in smaller diameters. If you find the 243 or 6mm to have more recoil than you desire, a cartrige with less powder and or a smaller diameter may become your option.

I know you said 24 cal minimum, but if that doesn't get it light enough for you or the performance of lighter bullets are less than desired, the .223 is more than adequate for deer to 300. My kids (all less than 62 lbs) hunt with a .223 suppressed. We've killed 5 deer and 2 hogs that dropped at the shot out to 180 using 60 and 64 grain bullets.

Since you mentioned it, a heavier rifle will absorb some of the recoil reflex too. A 10 lb 6mm or .243 should be pretty mild with 90-95gr moderate loads.

Good luck with it.

 

[Bluefish]

Thank for you for the additional data to compare.

So, comparing the 2 most popular deer rounds for each, your calculator shows a difference of 2.1 ft-lbs versus the 1.64 that my calculator showed.

Again, as I stated in a post above, I don't know how that translates in the real world? Would you say that 1.6 to 2.1 ft-lbs is significant? Would my neck/shoulder notice a difference between the .95 NBT (.243) vs the 108 ELDM (6ARC)?

Those 2 ftlbs of recoil are 25% more than the 6 arc. While a small number it’s a big change. About the same as adding a can to the 243. Yes the 6 arc won’t quite hang with the 243, but it has almost 50% less powder. That’s why it has an advantage in recoil. Also by having a 1:8 twist vs a 1:10 you can run the 108’s. Can’t do that in a saami spec 243.

 

[S-3 ranch]

It’s fairly easy a .243 win
However a 257 Robert’s is a great caliber and cartridge !
Just food for thought