Curiosity...What do you think of your state's draw system????

[5MilesBack]

Lol...you realize these preference points systems haven't been around that long right? So people in "todays society" are the ones that put these stupid systems in place.

What about your 12 year old who draws a good tag and now has to wait until he's in his late 50's to draw another one?

I'm almost 56 and CO's point system has been in place since I was a kid. And back then we always used our points to draw a COW tag and if we didn't draw a cow tag, then we bought an OTC bull tag. That's how much has changed over the years, just in the hunting mentality. Everyone seems to think that they deserve to be able to hunt some mystical "premier" unit that only issues 7 tags a year, yet has hundreds of thousands of people applying in the state for tags every year.

You also have to look at the state's reasoning for even going to a draw system, and what that system would look like. The state's wildlife management agencies don't have a charter task to make hunting fair for every person that will be born in the future.........they have a tasking to manage the state's wildlife.........period. The state could just say "tough luck NR's.......all CO's tags go to residents"......and their management of the wildlife would continue to be their tasking. "Fair" and "equitable" never comes into the equation.......that's an entitlement mentality which isn't even in the game management equation. But instead of being grateful that states even offer hunting tags, people prefer to gripe and complain about the process instead. Personally........I've never understood that mentality that everything HAS to be equal and fair.

As for those 12 year olds that start collecting points and "have to wait until they're in their 50's to draw another" after drawing their first "good" tag........my 16 year old got an elk tag in 2017 and shot a 330" bull (the first bull I called in for her) in a "good" unit. She already has enough points to draw another "good" tag this year, but is in college. So she will have to wait a couple years to do another hunt. My youngest daughter used a point to draw a cow tag this year. And if she wants to hunt a bull.......she can easily pick up an OTC bull tag too.

Life is good if you focus on your blessings and do some planning and strategizing rather than focusing on what you or others can't have. Native Coloradan and I've never had more than 5 elk points in my life.......and I HAVE become a trophy hunter.

 

[FLAK]

uh, yeah, and. no mule deer, antelope, moose, sheep, mt. goat, elk. No wonder you can buy a tag at will.

Deer for 4 mos., Waterfowl, Hogs, Gators, Predators, Turkey, small game. All season long, Every Year. No points.
Drive to NM for a week when I draw just to change it up
or maybe just up to TN or GA for Bear.
I'd hate to know I could only hunt 1 or 2 weeks of the season
for Big Game. That would turn me in to a year long fisherman.
Oh, and the fishing,,,,,dont get me started on the fishing.

 

[CorbLand]

Idaho, it's good.

Only thing I would change is the timing, finding out if you drew elk, deer, antelope tags in late June is too late.

At least you know how many tags will be available for each hunt before putting in. I would rather find out I drew later and understand my odds of getting a tag before applying. Utah has you put in in Feb/Mar but doesnt set tag allocation until the end of April.

 

[missjordan]

Montana- don’t really mind it. Think it’s better than a preference point system where there’s major point creep happening

But then again I’ve been putting in for a deer unit with decent draw odds and still sitting on 11 points now and just can’t believe i haven’t gotten the tag

Couple years ago drew a rifle Missouri breaks elk tag and had a not so good hunt. Hunted super hard for 2 1/2 weeks and ended up harvesting a bull that was on par with what we usually harvest in our general areas. Just never came across the bigger bulls it’s known for. So in my eyes the trophy draw areas get too much hype

In the end everywhere that we hunt is all OTC anyways and the draw doesn’t really decide our plans. It’s all an added treat. I just feel fortunate that I can hunt deer and elk every year without much effort in terms of planning the trip

MSG I’m probably an outlier here but I’m glad there not once in a lifetime. I think Montana has some decent choices for people sitting on a bunch of points that if they wanted an opportunity hunt over a trophy hunt they could draw something in a reasonable timeframe. Being in my late 20’s I’m willing to take a chance that i might draw one of the big 3 twice in my lifetime


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[JGuest]

South Dakota isn't great for big game draw systems. Small game is open season, even more so if you hunt private land. They tend to only focus on that sweet pheasant money. Also the out of state open archery draw is massively contentious for residents.

If I didn't have landowner preference I would likely be on a every other year or every third year rifle tag for some kind of big game. They've really managed to make it feel like you have to apply for multiple tags every year and hope you don't draw too many rather than being able to apply and get your tag of choice most years.

There's been some changes to the deer draw but it remains to be seen if those changes work or not. The reality is that normally I have 2 deer tags (an OTC and a guaranteed Landowner), an archery and a rifle, or I have 5-7 big game tags between antelope, deer, and elk.

 

[cburgin72]

Deer for 4 mos., Waterfowl, Hogs, Gators, Predators, Turkey, small game. All season long, Every Year. No points.
Drive to NM for a week when I draw just to change it up
or maybe just up to TN or GA for Bear.
I'd hate to know I could only hunt 1 or 2 weeks of the season
for Big Game. That would turn me in to a year long fisherman.
Oh, and the fishing,,,,,dont get me started on the fishing.

Have you drawn a gator tag? A buddy of mine got a monster in the delta 2-3 years back. What do you think about the system for the things we do have to draw for? It doesn't seem like there is much info on how they run the draw or maybe there just isn't much to it. No res/nonres allocations or anything similar (that I know of). One thing I know is nice is its free to apply! I drew one of the SOA hunts this past year and had a great experience.

 

[Danny Hoey]

I live in Washington and the system is bad. I haven't put in for a draw in about 10 years now. I do the majority of my hunting in Idaho and they get a thumbs up for their system.

 

[Marmots]

Idaho. It's great.

 

[sro914]

wyoming here, I like the way our system works except for the preference points. In the area I put in for moose a non resident has a better chance of drawing than a resident. I like random draw and believe if they would go to a once in life time draw on some species would help.

 

[cgasner1]

This is the odds for a tag in Montana with 95% odds for no points someone applied with 6 points and did not draw that is what’s amazing about the Montana draw system nothing is promised like with preference and anyone could draw or not draw at any time you just have a better shot when you have been applying for longer which seems fair to me I do wish they would do something different with a few things


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[SteveW1473]

At least you know how many tags will be available for each hunt before putting in. I would rather find out I drew later and understand my odds of getting a tag before applying. Utah has you put in in Feb/Mar but doesnt set tag allocation until the end of April.

Agreed. also here in UT if you have the $ to add to the donation box = tags

 

[Wrench]

Considering I've been after a bull tag in wa since 1992.... AND NEVER DRAWN, I'd say I'm less than impressed.

 

[vanish]

In CO you can start collecting points at age 12, so those "old coots" would be 32 after collecting 20 points. I don't think I've ever heard anyone calling 32 year olds "old coots" before.......until now.

That's part of the problem with society today, they are against anything favoring those that have put in the time, money, and effort for something that others want for free, with little to no effort or time. It's that whole "equity" push, rather than equality.

Let me preface this by saying I find the CO basic Draw system pretty good. It seems to work best when there is not a huge disparity in quality ( Mule deer ).

Your first point and second points have the same fallacy. PPs are hardly equality as the average number of points to draw increases YoY. 20 points to draw a tag now will be 35 points (WAG) to draw that same tag 20 years from now. So someone who says "it took me 20 years to get that tag, you can wait your 20 years and hunt it, too!" is bullshitting you.

Also, pointing out a flaw in a system is hardly trying to discount the time/money people before have invested. There are plenty of ways to introduce changes that are low impact to the status quo and phase in over time. For example on possibility: stopping awarding preference points, but still _use_ them in the draw while moving to a bonus point or random system. As the draw for a tag hits 0 PPs, the new system kicks in.

CO's hybrid draws are a pretty good approach, imo. People who've waited their time still get a guaranteed number of tags. Nobody who put in for their first draw can draw. Those who have applied for awhile have a small chance of drawing. "So you're saying there's a chance?!"

The latter is all I ask: for everyone to have a _chance_ at a good tag. Wyoming NR draw seems pretty decent in that respect.

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OTC elk are a bit of a wrench in the elk draw. I'd rather the OTC tags be limited in some form. However, I don't see why this also means creating unit specific tags. Why can't the tag cover all the same units as the current OTC tags and have a very high quota? Most people will draw the tag 4th choice, but some will put it as 1st choice. At least there starts to be a risk one must consider on gaining a PP.

 

[FLAK]

Have you drawn a gator tag? A buddy of mine got a monster in the delta 2-3 years back. What do you think about the system for the things we do have to draw for? It doesn't seem like there is much info on how they run the draw or maybe there just isn't much to it. No res/nonres allocations or anything similar (that I know of). One thing I know is nice is its free to apply! I drew one of the SOA hunts this past year and hcead a great experience.

I just recently moved here (back home) after living in FL. for 16 years. I havent drawn a gator tag and havent even applied as I'm currently boat-less. I had 2 boats stolen while living in FL.
I would like to get me a gator though, living15-20 minutes away from the Delta. See gators every day when its warm. I have a longtail motor, just need a jon boat to put it on.
Mostly been chasing ducks in my kayak.
Takes a while to figure things out when you move to a new area. I'm a HillBilly living in the swamps.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

2020 and 2021 seem to be shaping up where the "opportunity" states are going to quit being just that. Digging through a bunch of the numbers we are seeing that participation in draws, no surpise here, is set to be the highest ever. Lots of people are trying to get out of the straight preference point game and get into the the OTC world or the random states.

Will that challenge those state's systems ability to cycle through hunters, probably. Opportunity states are going to have to balance a lot of things moving forward.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Random draw appeals to people who prefer a small chance of success today instead of zero chance today but greater chance years down the road. Preference points appeal to people who like to plan and are willing to wait. Bonus points and hybrid systems fall somewhere in between.

None of these methods are inherently more or less "fair." The fact that in a preference point system some tags are guaranteed to be out-of-reach for some people because they didn't begin building points early enough doesn't make a preference point system "unfair." In random draw systems, some people apply for premier tags their whole lives and never draw one, which is also not unfair, it's just a symptom of demand exceeding supply.

Point creep also doesn't make a point system unfair. Again, it's just a symptom of demand outpacing supply. The same factors that cause creep in a point-based system are manifest as continual year-over-year declining draw odds in a random system. The basic effect is the same: tags get harder and harder to draw over time.

 

[Aginor]

Random draw appeals to people who prefer a small chance of success today instead of zero chance today but greater chance years down the road. Preference points appeal to people who like to plan and are willing to wait. Bonus points and hybrid systems fall somewhere in between.

None of these methods are inherently more or less "fair." The fact that in a preference point system some tags are guaranteed to be out-of-reach for some people because they didn't begin building points early enough doesn't make a preference point system "unfair." In random draw systems, some people apply for premier tags their whole lives and never draw one, which is also not unfair, it's just a symptom of demand exceeding supply.

Point creep also doesn't make a point system unfair. Again, it's just a symptom of demand outpacing supply. The same factors that cause creep in a point-based system are manifest as continual year-over-year declining draw odds in a random system. The basic effect is the same: tags get harder and harder to draw over time.

The one caveat to this is that in a random draw, people don’t feel the sunk cost of putting in for a bunch of years preventing them from quitting. Say I moved out of state but have 10 points and it takes 15 to draw, I’d probably continuing putting in for it, whereas a random draw l’d cut my losses and move on. Or if I didn’t want to/couldn’t afford putting in for tags that year, I’d be much less willing to skip it because I gotta get that point. The rest you’re spot on about. It’s just a matter of preference


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[5MilesBack]

Your first point and second points have the same fallacy. PPs are hardly equality as the average number of points to draw increases YoY.

The number of points does not equal equality........equality is having the same equal opportunity to apply for and accrue points. How they then choose to use them, is up to them......and we have equality in being able to make those choices on our own. Some will use a couple points every few years and have a lot of decent hunts in their lifetime, others will hang on for that one unit that they might draw before they die. But that choice is theirs and theirs alone.

I look at it like "saving for retirement". We all have the opportunity to save for retirement, but those "outcomes" certainly aren't equal. "Equity" would be getting the exact same amounts regardless how many years you worked, or how much you saved. That's why so many seem to be pushing that whole "equity" crap these days. They all want a part of what they didn't work for.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

i find the people that bitch about the draws the most are the ones that don't know how it works. It boggles my mind how many guys who hunt a lot have no idea that in AZ you will never draw a half decent elk tag 3rd choice. They complain all year about how they can't even draw a late unit 1 archery tag 5th choice lmao

 

[JeffP_Or]

Oregon here - I'm with @wapitibob on this one. Not a bad system overall. I like that the OIL tags are not PP'd.

There are numerous here that do not like the system and want to eliminate it altogether or go with bonus points etc. I am not convinced that bonus ponts would solve the creep issues we see at this point in the game. And I can say, after hunting here for years prior to the draw tags and PP system: our group was one of those that could not draw anything as units became established [after being able to just go anywhere east side or west side]. The points give us a chance.

We still continue to have zero luck with the 25% pool as well; simply no luck.

We do have some more serious issues at hand than the draw though.