Crossbow Regs - Colorado

[gelton]

When you know the answer, but keep asking till you get the one you want to hear.

This is not at all what is happening but feel free to question ethics if it makes you feel better.

The person he spoke with at DOW did not have a definite answer and referred him to someone else that has yet to return his call or email.

How on God's green earth calling the DOW for clarification on a reg can be akin to not being ethical is beyond me.

 

[H80Hunter]

FWIW I also think it disallows battery powered sights of any kind.

 

[gelton]

To me, that reads pretty obviously that red dots are not legal aiming devices in Colorado.

They actually contradict you when they say red dots are LEGAL in the same paragraph.

• Scopes with magnification greater than 1X on crossbow
  • Requires documentation of a visual disability in Section 2 as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Hyperopia, myopia, and presbyopia are not considered disabilities under the ADA and will not qualify for an accommodation. Age-related visual impairments will not qualify. NOTE: CPW allows the use of non-magnifying scopes and red dot sights that magnify 1X or less with a Crossbow/Draw-Loc permit. This accommodation does NOT allow laser or battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming or a sighting device that emits light from a crossbow to the animal. The intent of these seasons is to provide a “primitive” style recreational opportunity for hunters.

 

[307]

They actually contradict you when they say red dots are LEGAL in the same paragraph.

• Scopes with magnification greater than 1X on crossbow
  • Requires documentation of a visual disability in Section 2 as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Hyperopia, myopia, and presbyopia are not considered disabilities under the ADA and will not qualify for an accommodation. Age-related visual impairments will not qualify. NOTE: CPW allows the use of non-magnifying scopes and red dot sights that magnify 1X or less with a Crossbow/Draw-Loc permit. This accommodation does NOT allow laser or battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming or a sighting device that emits light from a crossbow to the animal. The intent of these seasons is to provide a “primitive” style recreational opportunity for hunters.

If this is the law as written, it's pretty obvious that you can use the red dot.

The wording could be a bit better, but it specifically allows a red dot, so...

 

[sndmn11]

Here is the regulation for handheld bows.
"f. Scopes and electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to bow or arrow, with the exception of lighted nocks on arrows. Recording devices such as cameras or video recorders attached to bows may be used as long as they do not cast light toward the target or aid in range finding, sighting or shooting the bow"

Why on earth would they not copy and paste that for the disabled crossbow regulations if all red dot sights were illegal?
The answer is because red dot sights are allowed as a battery operated aiming or sighting device. That exception opens up the use of a Garmin Xero type sight, so they had to add the stipulation that said device cannot aid in rangefinding. It also opened up the idea that a laser sight fits the idea of a battery powered aiming device, so they had to stipulate that the device cannot emit light onto the animal.

They gray area would be having a no magnification red dot sight with MOA/MIL or marks otherwise that could be used for ranging by an educated person.

 

[Billy Goat]

"aiming or sighting device that emits light from a crossbow to the animal."

They aren't outlawing a battery powered aiming or sighting device. One that emits light from the crossbow to the animal is outlawed.

Ok

 

[gelton]

FWIW I also think it disallows battery powered sights of any kind.

The issue is that they do allow red dots, how many red dots do you know of that arent battery operated...sure they exist but the term red dot, GENERALLY assumes battery operated.

 

[H80Hunter]

Realistically you either need to get an answer from a warden or err on the side of caution. Agree it's clumsy and contradicting at times. I hate the way all these states write regs, like someone said, seems to be intentionally grey.

 

[gelton]

Realistically you either need to get an answer from a warden or err on the side of caution. Agree it's clumsy and contradicting at times. I hate the way all these states write regs, like someone said, seems to be intentionally grey.

Agreed, and it was me who said it seems intentionally vague. What is missing is the definition of red dot from the state (which in most every definition one can find - refers to a battery-operated illuminated sight.)

In any case, we intend to have a definite answer and will report back.

 

[sndmn11]

Realistically you either need to get an answer from a warden or err on the side of caution. Agree it's clumsy and contradicting at times. I hate the way all these states write regs, like someone said, seems to be intentionally grey.

I think it is really clear for the most part, it has to meet all of the elements to not be allowed;
-attached
-battery/electronic powered
-used for ranging OR used for aiming/sighting and emit light onto the animal

Dude could have a battery powered flashlight attached to his crossbow, but since it isn't used for aiming it is cool.

Dude's friend could have a laser pointer he holds to put a dot on the animal as an aiming point for the hunter, but since it isn't attached to the crossbow it is cool.

Dude could tape a mirror to his crossbow that reflects the sun onto the animal and under 1/1000000 circumstances the bolt strikes the reflected mirror's light perfect, but since it isn't electric, its cool.

 

[gelton]

@sndmn11 you are the winner!!

Just called them directly and they said that it can be battery operated as long as it does not project light from the scope to the animal and the only person that can see the dot is the shooter.

How is that for ethics

 

[sndmn11]

@sndmn11 you are the winner!!

Just called them directly and they said that it can be battery operated as long as it does not project light from the scope to the animal and the only person that can see the dot is the shooter.

How is that for ethics

OK, but did you ask about my mirror contraption????

 

[LongWayAround]

They actually contradict you when they say red dots are LEGAL in the same paragraph.

• Scopes with magnification greater than 1X on crossbow
  • Requires documentation of a visual disability in Section 2 as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Hyperopia, myopia, and presbyopia are not considered disabilities under the ADA and will not qualify for an accommodation. Age-related visual impairments will not qualify. NOTE: CPW allows the use of non-magnifying scopes and red dot sights that magnify 1X or less with a Crossbow/Draw-Loc permit. This accommodation does NOT allow laser or battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming or a sighting device that emits light from a crossbow to the animal. The intent of these seasons is to provide a “primitive” style recreational opportunity for hunters.

It appears I should have read past your first post...

The original quote seemed to me that they weren't legal. To then contradict that in the same paragraph is asinine.

 

[307]

@sndmn11 you are the winner!!

Just called them directly and they said that it can be battery operated as long as it does not project light from the scope to the animal and the only person that can see the dot is the shooter.

How is that for ethics

Quite ethical I'd say.

 

[journeyman713]

There's a lot of options, not all say 'go for it'. Personally I tend to err on the side of caution, especially when it come to laws.

I hope you got some proof of what the guy on the phone said. Because so far, the only thing in writing, is the stuff above. Which doesn't look good, that is if you want to add, a "battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming"

NOTE:
This accommodation does NOT allow laser or battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming

 

[gelton]

There's a lot of options, not all say 'go for it'. Personally I tend to err on the side of caution, especially when it come to laws.

I hope you got some proof of what the guy on the phone said. Because so far, the only thing in writing, is the stuff above. Which doesn't look good, that is if you want to add, a "battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming"

NOTE:
This accommodation does NOT allow laser or battery operated/electronically powered devices that are attached to or incorporated into the crossbow which aid in range finding and/or aiming

Except that in the sentence above what you posted it says red dots are allowed....how would you define red dot? The term is ubiquitous for a battery-operated sight that produces an LED dot.

I get where you are coming from and that is why I posed the question...the law is murky as hell and the state does not define the term red dot.

I called the game warden station in the county that we will be hunting and their response acknowledged that the wording meant laser - I was even told, "like a sniper who would put a red dot from a laser on your forehead."

 

[journeyman713]

Except that in the sentence above what you posted it says red dots are allowed....how would you define red dot? The term is ubiquitous for a battery-operated sight that produces an LED dot.

I get where you are coming from and that is why I posed the question...the law is murky as hell and the state does not define the term red dot.

I called the game warden station in the county that we will be hunting and their response acknowledged that the wording meant laser - I was even told, "like a sniper who would put a red dot from a laser on your forehead."

From what I get out of the wording is- Red dot is ok, but if the Red dot is electronically illuminated…

 

[Billy Goat]

I can't read it to say red dots are ok, but I might have my and/or and or/and's flip flopped and turned upside down.



On thing is crossbows are legal for general, so what might be legal in general, might not be legal for a archery waiver, but the copied part that had red dots in it did state archery crossbow permit.

 

[307]

From what I get out of the wording is- Red dot is ok, but if the Red dot is electronically illuminated…

You already lost this one amigo.