Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy experience?

[goathunter]

I am totally screwing up my archery season and getting a new pup this September. I trained a dog with Wolters Gun or Water dog a long time ago but just been reading as much as I can and can see all the mistakes I made. Reading The Wildrose Way right now, and it's great but light on details. I am a fan of not e-collar training. This will be a family dog first, if he is solid on obedience I will be happy. SO -Anyone used Cornerstone Gundog Academy program? Seems expensive but detailed videos sound like it would be very helpful. Also considering just paying for some obedience training lessons locally.

 

[KurtR]

Its an ok program Barton is a decent enough guy but there are alot better programs they all use a e collar and there is a reason. Wildrose like to brag but they had a dog drown last year because they could not recall it and are against e collars also. Seems the dog would have been better off alive with a little nick vs dead.

Why are you a fan of not using the collar? Most people who say that dont have a real reason and have little to no understanding that it is the same thing as a pinch collar choke chain or heeling stick its just a form of pressure no different than yelling at the dog.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Most people who say that dont have a real reason and have little to no understanding that it is the same thing as a pinch collar choke chain or heeling stick its just a form of pressure no different than yelling at the dog.

This. A bad trainer is a bad trainer regardless of what tool they use.

I think e collars are a wonderful tool. My current pup doesn’t take a lick of electricity. I just use the tone for pressure.

Pressure and release is the foundation of training for the inevitable time when treats and praise don’t work.

 

[twall13]

I've become an advocate for e-collars the more I've delved into training and used them. I'm far from an expert and some of the guys who have already responded on here are much more knowledgeable than me. That said, I've gone several years without needing to shock my pup, but she still wears her e-collar several times a week. The tones come in mighty handy when she gets a little out of hearing range. I still use a whistle for some things, but the E-collar gets a lot more use with the tones these days.

As mentioned above, it's a form of pressure. Every dog is different and some require more pressure than others, but once trained, you rarely shock. I've shocked myself at the different levels so I knew how severe it was before using it on my dog. Most dogs will respond well before a point I would consider painful.

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[chemist]

In my mind training a dog is not a matter of carrot or stick. It is a question of what balance between the carrot and stick. Both are useful.

I do not consider myself to really train with an ecollar. I teach commands without it but once they know the command I use the e collar to enforce what they know.

The biggest thing with obedience for a family dog is to remember that every time you or a family member interact with the dog, you are training it to do something. If you/wife/child allow the dog to jump up on you as a cute puppy then they are learning this is acceptable behavior. If you/wife/child allow the dog to bolt out the door then they are learning this is acceptable. If you/wife/child make the dog sit and wait to be released before eating every time you are training the dog that it will be rewarded for doing as you ask. The hardest thing you may encounter is getting everyone in the family to understand this and all of you to follow the same rules with the dog.

 

[goathunter]

Its an ok program Barton is a decent enough guy but there are alot better programs they all use a e collar and there is a reason. Wildrose like to brag but they had a dog drown last year because they could not recall it and are against e collars also. Seems the dog would have been better off alive with a little nick vs dead.

Why are you a fan of not using the collar? Most people who say that dont have a real reason and have little to no understanding that it is the same thing as a pinch collar choke chain or heeling stick its just a form of pressure no different than yelling at the dog.

not saying anything bad against e-collars at all, just don't have any experience with them so wouldn't feel comfortable using one. And would like to try positive reinforcement

 

[goathunter]

In my mind training a dog is not a matter of carrot or stick. It is a question of what balance between the carrot and stick. Both are useful.

I do not consider myself to really train with an ecollar. I teach commands without it but once they know the command I use the e collar to enforce what they know.

The biggest thing with obedience for a family dog is to remember that every time you or a family member interact with the dog, you are training it to do something. If you/wife/child allow the dog to jump up on you as a cute puppy then they are learning this is acceptable behavior. If you/wife/child allow the dog to bolt out the door then they are learning this is acceptable. If you/wife/child make the dog sit and wait to be released before eating every time you are training the dog that it will be rewarded for doing as you ask. The hardest thing you may encounter is getting everyone in the family to understand this and all of you to follow the same rules with the dog.

Yes that will be a struggle with the kids!

 

[PVHunter]

I don't think I'm going to add much value here, but I've found that my dogs have all been on a spectrum from Charmin soft to granite hard. You calibrate the correction tool - your voice, a prong collar, an e-collar - to the dog and deploy it with the same consistent training philosophy.

As an aside, if you're that worried about the e-collar, give it a try on yourself first (ideally with your wife and/or kids watching). It's not that bad. Honest.

 

[Derekc6713]

I’m currently going through their course right now with my 9 month old lab. I will say as everyone has stated they are big on the positive reinforcement philosophy. For me some of their program has worked some hasn’t. Specifically how they teach fetch I ended up using force fetch with my dog because their method wasn’t working. Generally though I think it’s a good baseline program especially if you’ve never trained a dog and don’t have a mentor to show you how to train a dog. I fall into that category. It definitely helps to breakdown the process. Myself and my dog have benefited from the program. That being said I still do plan to utilize an e-collar. I believe it’s just another tool to reinforce the training that should already be instilled in the dog.

 

[KurtR]

They are no more positive re enforcement than a program that uses a collar they just don’t use a collar.

They use all four quadrants of dog training. That slip lead is the same as the collar or the check cord .

A puppy program that I would get is Pat Nolan’s. No collar but no one uses a collar to start pups

 

[goathunter]

I have the Sound Beginnings DVD but have yet to watch.

 

[goathunter]

One thing to note, I have zero plans for hunt tests, etc. Just solid obedience training for a family dog, and I'm going to gun dog train some. I think that's an issue with most programs I've seen, they're written by respected experts for someone that is trying to do trials and not your average Joe

 

[KurtR]

I have the Sound Beginnings DVD but have yet to watch.

if this is the one you have I would start watching it. Jackie Mertens has one of the best goldens ever.

 

[molliesmaster]

Pay close attention to what Derek said above.

Some of the cornerstone stuff is great. But it only gets you so far in the real world. Positive training only works in so far as you're the coolest thing in the room to the dog, once a distraction outside of you becomes more positive you've lost the focus/control of your dog.

In the end, you will get a much better product if you take the time to learn how to use an ecollar properly, whether you want a family dog or the field champion.

 

[KurtR]

One thing to note, I have zero plans for hunt tests, etc. Just solid obedience training for a family dog, and I'm going to gun dog train some. I think that's an issue with most programs I've seen, they're written by respected experts for someone that is trying to do trials and not your average Joe

Your over thinking it. Obedience is the foundation for all test/trial dogs. It doesnt matter if you want a fc or just a good pet they all start with the same basics nothing changes till you get to advanced concepts

 

[loganwayne]

All my dogs are collar conditioned. My 2.5 year old dog hasn't even been toned in probably 6 months but always has a collar on just in case.

Only time I don't have an e collar on my dog when we are out and about is during a field trial. Hiking, going to the lake, walking around town, outside my fenced yard they have an e collar

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Ecollars are a must. I conditioned my GSP at 6months old. He is trained on vibration for communication. Two vibrations means “here”, one long vibration means “hey, I need your attention”. Very rarely do I have to zap him. The benefit of an ecollar is your can give immediate corrections instead of trying to correct seconds or minutes later.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I think that's an issue with most programs I've seen, they're written by respected experts for someone that is trying to do trials and not your average Joe

I 100% agree with @molliesmaster and @KurtR. Every hunt trial or test is based off obedience. High level training still relies on pressure and release at some point. Period.

“Don’t Shoot the Dog” is a great book on marker training, and I’m a huge proponent of marker training BUT I also use pressure and release training because I need my dog to perform under distraction or pressure.

Everyone thinks their dog is obedient as can be and then wonders why their dog will get run over chasing deer or end up in a dog fight at the dog park. They were never trained to be obedient under distraction.

 

[goathunter]

This thread was just to ask about people's experience with CGA and I've gotten a bunch of different advice! Which is great. The Barton puppy program looks good. The wildrose book seems like it would be just fine for up to 6mos anyways. Going to watch the Sound Beginnings DVD. Don't Shoot the Dog looks like a good read. So I think I have good options for puppy stage.

Its an ok program Barton is a decent enough guy but there are alot better programs they all use a e collar and there is a reason.

Beyond the puppy stage, what recommendations do you have? CGA seems to promise to really handhold you through training with videos which is what I'm looking for. Does any other program do this? Maybe I could follow that program then read up on e-collar training. I actually have the smartworks book but it is way too vague for me.

 

[KurtR]

This thread was just to ask about people's experience with CGA and I've gotten a bunch of different advice! Which is great. The Barton puppy program looks good. The wildrose book seems like it would be just fine for up to 6mos anyways. Going to watch the Sound Beginnings DVD. Don't Shoot the Dog looks like a good read. So I think I have good options for puppy stage.

Beyond the puppy stage, what recommendations do you have? CGA seems to promise to really handhold you through training with videos which is what I'm looking for. Does any other program do this? Maybe I could follow that program then read up on e-collar training. I actually have the smartworks book but it is way too vague for me.

this right here Freddy has videos from just getting home and if you follow the meat dog stuff you have a dog that’s better behaved and when you go hunting will be better than 90 percent of dogs. He will walk you through personally if you have questions. It’s the best 60 dollars you could spend. Will walk you through collar conditioning and force fetch which are two of the most important steps if you want a well behaved well rounded pet or hunting buddy.

Freddy King Training | The Retriever Trainer

www.theretrievertrainer.com