Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

hereinaz

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Man believe me... Despite reading all of the threads here, kill results, great evidence for the .224s I was still hesitant. I sent off several messages to folks up to just a couple weeks before I took off for Alaska in September with my 22 Creedmoor. Spent time on the phone with experienced killers asking "am I really good to go here?" haha.

It's just been engrained in our heads all of our lives that "bigger is required" when talking big game animals. It was a bit freeing this year to see what happens in real life.
There is a Joseph von Benendict podcast with a Hornady dude who went to Africa with a bunch of guys and they killed 7-9 animals each with 22 creed and 22 arc loaded with ELDx. So dozens of animals. And, they talk about Tyler Freel (?) who killed a pile of stuff with his 22 creed.

Get that, they smashed dozens of African game with the 22 creed and arc.

It’s funny because JVB agrees with him but can’t bring himself to endorse 22 creed. At the end, he has to give all sorts of caveats. He always goes to scenarios where he endorses shooting “through the paunch cause that’s the only angle and I know you are going to take it if this is a once in a lifetime hunt and it is your only shot opportunity.” He also repeats his canards about rutted up elk and “penetration” of hunting bullets.

The way he went along with him on this episode but then trashed the Exo podcast makes me wonder. Don’t know him, but it’s a reasonable impression to me that JVB is a good industry man, and he probably believes his opinions. It’s not a conspiracy.

I listen to his podcast quite a bit, some interesting things, but he definitely represents the status quo.

They also talk about how the ELDx is explosive at close range/high velocity and very devastating on game, with no exits. Several DRT.

But, when hit at long range it then exits and leaves blood trails like a good hunting bullet.

It’s only a few episodes later that he goes off about small calibers are not good for game.

Bottom line is the .22 cal bullets kill stuff dead if you put it in the boiler room. There are certainly tradeoffs, but shootability is such a high priority for killing, that we smaller caliber shooters sacrifice the ability to make a Texas heart shot with a Barnes triple shock out of a 300 rum.

All the “rodeos” I have witnessed were because of bad shots and because few have embraced small cartridges, they are all big calibers. Two rodeos were my own, but I ultimately got the deers killed.
 

Runwilderness

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from the intro, paragraph 1:

Introduction​

Ballistic gelatin, hereafter referred to as gelatin, is often used as a simulant for studying impact damage in soft biological tissues (Maiden, 2009, Nicholas and Welsch, 2004). Gelatin, a protein derived from either skin or bone (Kneubuehl, 2011), is produced by submitting collagen to an irreversible process that renders it water-soluble. Two common gelatin formulations, 10% by mass at 4 °C and 20% by mass at 10 °C, are often used by researchers (Nicholas and Welsch, 2004, Jussila, 2004); henceforth “by mass” is omitted for brevity when describing the gelatin. For simulating the impact of a projectile into gelatin one needs its material properties over the range of strains, strain-rates and temperatures likely to occur at anticipated impact velocities.

Note: this says that gel is often used to study impact damage to tissue, but doesn’t provide evidence that it does. At minimum you should be citing Maiden or Nicholas and Weldch. Form suggested you used AI for your answer. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say you googled and read the free Intro yourself, citing a modeling paper (without providing the source), and relying on statements in the free Intro rather than the actual data results and conclusions from those original papers is scientifically lazy at best and suggests you don’t understand what you’re reading at worst.

Oh, pressure = force/area and energy = force * distance, so a pressure wave traveling through biological tissue is very much a part of any energy system equation.
 

LONE HUNTER

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My argument is: adding large amounts of kinetic energy around the hole increases the odds of killing exponentially. Additionally, when the hole may not be perfectly placed, the large amount of energy may have a killing result when it is large enough and powerful enough to damage the organs and create shock to the system. shutting down the nervous system and in some cases liquifying the organs.
But will they increase the probability of hitting the animal correctly? That is part of the "odds of killing" as you stated it.

Your arguments which could theoretically be stated as "shooting a larger cartridge/caliber increases the size of the kill zone" on game when compared to a smaller cartridge. Which I neither agree nor disagree with.

However, if we assume your position is true and that a larger cartridge increases the margin of error for a bad shot.... does it increase it enough to matter for someone? What I mean by that is, do they shoot that bigger rifle well enough to benefit from that? Honestly ask yourself if average joe hunter is gonna be a good enough marksman to benefit from a 7MM PRC vs a 6mm Creedmoor.

I can only speak for myself, but my lethality went up, shooting a 6.5 hipster over a 7mm RM.
 
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In what I’ve personally seen on very large bodied northern whitetails, the mature does that I like to kill have always travelled the furthest when hit. This is the case from .338 down to what I also saw this year with .224.

If you look at the photos most of the hits were in the heart and lungs. Some animals drop dead from these hits and some do not. Animal size doesn’t have anything to do with it in what I’ve seen in general. More the animals will to survive or make it to cover. For whatever reason, those doe up north like to move after being shot.

I’m a heart/lungs shooter in general but there are certain shot situations where I don’t want an animal to go anywhere. A higher placed shot works wonders for this in most cases, allowing for paralysis and then a follow up killing shot when needed. This was the case on the bull a couple weeks ago but the bullet fragmentation did enough damage to lungs and heart that I could see him dying through the scope and bare eyes after, not requiring a grounded neck, head, or vitals shot.
Quick side question. What is your barrel twist on your 22creed. I want to shoot the 80eldx you shoot and also 62eldvt on coyotes.
 

hereinaz

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I hear you

As stated - my premise has never been that a big enough hole in something kills it.

My argument is: adding large amounts of kinetic energy around the hole increases the odds of killing exponentially. Additionally, when the hole may not be perfectly placed, the large amount of energy may have a killing result when it is large enough and powerful enough to damage the organs and create shock to the system. shutting down the nervous system and in some cases liquifying the organs.

Matching was never the idea. The OP was considering going from a 7 to a 6mm. the two photos were not meant to directly compare a bunch of the same. They were meant to support that staying with bigger bullets for hunting will penetrate better, transfer more energy, and damage more tissue than smaller.
I used to endorse that 100%, but see much more nuance now.

The apparent growing body of evidence is that there are diminishing returns in the amount of tissue damage between a 100 grain 6mm and a 200 grain grain 308. The tissue damage isn’t twice as much. Often, it is indistinguishable.

But in the flip side the recoil is much more than 2x making shootability between them an enormous gulf.

Kids can’t shoot 300 win mags with lower body weight and smaller muscles. But they can slay with 6 creeds.

That’s two points of the big calculus. The “what” 1) small calibers with match bullets cause enough damage and the “why” 2) they are more shootable for everyone increasing lethality on first shot and ease of spotting and second shots.

Because point 1 satifies the initial question: can the bullet kill efficiently? The next question addresses if there is a benefit to giving up a little killing power.

Number 2 emphatically pushes the calculus to small calibers by indisputably increasing the lethality of the human/rifle system.

The tradeoff in shootability for a small reduction in damage is huge.

Now, if a shooter practices and is skilled enough to shoot a 300, then go for it. I keep a 7mm mag just cause, but I know I will have to really “do my part” to execute a shot that is much easier with a creed.
 

hereinaz

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Quick side question. What is your barrel twist on your 22creed. I want to shoot the 80eldx you shoot and also 62eldvt on coyotes.
Hornady specs an 8 twist in SAAMI for up to 80 grain ELDm to stabilize that range bullets. If you go 88 gr, that might be to slow a twist at extremes, so Hornady doesn’t make factory 88 grain ammo.

It depends on barrel, velocity, and other but you are safe at 8 twist.
 

mxgsfmdpx

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Hornady specs an 8 twist in SAAMI for up to 80 grain ELDm to stabilize that range bullets. If you go 88 gr, that might be to slow a twist at extremes, so Hornady doesn’t make factory 88 grain ammo.

It depends on barrel, velocity, and other but you are safe at 8 twist.
88s shoot better than the 80s so far in my tikka 8 twist. On par with the 77s which shot the best previously.

15 shots at 100 yards from this week.

IMG_9765.jpeg

IMG_9766.jpeg

Edit: That is comparing factory loaded ammo versus hand loads to be fair.

We shall see what @huntnful comes up with for a load for this Tikka using 80 ELDXs 😎
 

hereinaz

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88s shoot better than the 80s so far in my tikka 8 twist. On par with the 77s which shot the best previously.

15 shots at 100 yards from this week.

View attachment 807008

View attachment 807009

Edit: That is comparing factory loaded ammo versus hand loads to be fair.

We shall see what @huntnful comes up with for a load for this Tikka using 80 ELDXs 😎
Yeah, most rifles with the 8 twist will stabilize the 88s, but there needs to be 100% that factory stuff works without any possible problems. Some factory gun somewhere would not stabilize 88s so they won’t make factory ammo per a podcast with Seth S from Hornady on Backcountry Hunting.
 

Dioni A

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88s shoot better than the 80s so far in my tikka 8 twist. On par with the 77s which shot the best previously.

15 shots at 100 yards from this week.

View attachment 807008

View attachment 807009

Edit: That is comparing factory loaded ammo versus hand loads to be fair.

We shall see what @huntnful comes up with for a load for this Tikka using 80 ELDXs 😎
39-40 grains of h4350 has been the answer for the 7 or 8 22 creeds I’ve been around
 

MarkOrtiz

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Yup she was spot on… I have checked my ballistics 1000 times since and I was dialed 4.3 on that initial shot and that’s what jt should have been.

I’m chalking it up to nerves and just pooor execution tho I do remember where those crosshairs were when the shoot broke… but hey I’m not perfect.
Can you shoot at the same distance and see what your shot does dialed at 4.3? Maybe the data is off?
 

Choot

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As another set to what Dioni may have… Herr is my personal kill list from Sept 2024 to Dec 2024 shooting all with 22 Creedmoor and 80 ELDX. I gathered the data this year to be able to share with anyone interested.

I have necropsy photos of all the kills and have shared them in the .223 thread and the “22 Creedmoor thread”.


1. Bull Moose: Yardage: 523. Impact Velocity: 2,180. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: What most would call "high shoulder". Distance Traveled After Shot:20-30 feet.

2. Black Bear Boar: Yardage: 110-130 (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,900ish. Shot Position: Standing Supported. Impact Location: Mid Body Distance Traveled After Shot: 80-90 yards full sprint before collapsing.

3. Mule Deer Buck: Yardage: 636. Impact Velocity: 2,150. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location: High Brisket. Distance Travelled After Shot: 180-220 yards tumbling/rolling downhill.

4. Coues Deer Buck (Different Shooter): Yardage: 212. Impact Velocity: 2,720. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 1st Shot Neck. Ran 40-60 yards and stumbled but stayed up. 2nd shot broke as it started jogging forward again, impacted rear quarter. Deer dropped and died. Distance Travelled After Shot: 40-60 Yards.

5. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 203. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 4th Rib Bone. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

6. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 40-50 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,050. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Between 4th and 5th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

7. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 404. Impact Velocity: 2,390. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location:Scapula. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

8. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 20-30 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,070. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Quartering Away, 5th and 6th ribs. Distance Traveled After Shot: 110-130 Yards.

9. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 272. Impact Velocity: 2,610. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location:Between 3rd and 4th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 120-140 yards.

10. Whitetail Doe (Different Shooter): Yardage: 208. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Kneeling Supported. Impact Location: Forward-Facing Neck (head up smelling us). Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

11. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 510. Impact Velocity: 2,225. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: 1 Shot, 5th Rib. Deer ran 60-80 yards and stopped. 2nd Shot, Scapula. Dropped. Distance Traveled After Shot: 60-80 Yards.

12. Whitetail Buck: Yardage 232. Impact Velocity:2,730ish. Shot Position: Standing, supported by tree branch. Impact Location: 3rd Rib. Distance Traveled After Shot: 5-10
Yards.

13. Bull Elk: Yardage: 120ish (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,920ish. Shot Position: Kneeling Unsupported. Impact Location:High on the 5th Rib Bone. Exited 5th Rib Bone. Bullet lodged in offside fat/hide. Massive fragmentation, damaged spine, damaged lung, heart was chunked up mess. Distance Travelled After Shot: 0 Yards. Paralyzed. Heavy and labored breathing for around 90 seconds.
What are the blood trails normally like?
 

mxgsfmdpx

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What are the blood trails normally like?
The average distance travelled between all the kills was less than 50 yards. I found all the animals without having to go back to impact location and begin looking for blood. Another benefit of watching the animal through the scope the entire time and memorizing the last known “landmark” before losing sight of the animal.
 
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