Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

[5811]

What he’s showing is a bit disingenuous and is common in the industry where terminal ballistics is poorly understood or they just want to make a marketing statement. The pressure wave that makes the block jump and makes cool slow motion pictures has not been scientifically shown to decrease incapacitation times.

Your last sentence is at least correct. Although you use a double negative to say it, perhaps a freudian slip, what science agrees with. Kinetic energy KE = 0.5 • m • v2, expanding rounds can cause extensive damage, such as pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels, and liquefying organs.

So you agree that the energy that makes the block jump does not lead to a faster kill?

 

[Article 4]

So you agree that the energy that makes the block jump does not lead to a faster kill?

No, that is not what my answer said at all. Read it closely

 

[Formidilosus]

If the performance of the cartridge had nothing to do with the hit rates, as you stated,

I said that the data gathered shows that it doesn’t make a functional difference for the vast majority of shooters- because they aren’t missing due to external ballistic shortcomings. We miss because we suck. The cost of the larger calibers and larger cases often has a net negative effect outside of very niche circumstances.

can we assume from 3 longer range hits, were the hits a result of the smaller cartridges or was it the shooters themself?

The shooters- but that’s the point: the “larger” cartridges aren’t providing the “margin for error” that people believe.

If you pull the 3 instructors out, you and the two others, what were the results from the 31 shooters in total actual hits at any distance?

The information is in that post.

Was there any significant data split on smaller to larger calibers?

The information is in that post.

A 308 is larger than a 22 creedmoor, do you feel like that is not a good comparator, and less about the caliber - the instructors seemed to hit with 308, making it appear it was more the shooter than caliber.

It is the shooter. Regardless of cartridge, it is the shooter. Big 7mm and 30cals do not show a higher success rate when all shots are factored. But, the crossover is when you have very little gun movement, very little muzzle blast, very little recoil, yet good BC- I.E, fast 22’s and 6mm’s with good bullets. Then you get the benefit of the shootability and the ballistic performance.

Do you feel like if you had a chance to run a test where each shooter brought two rifles, perhaps a 6mm something and a 7 or 30mm something, it would show anything maybe differently?

All/nearly all of the shooters did bring two rifles- lots were “magnum” 6.5’s, 7mm’s, and 30cals.

Of the targets beyond 427 yards to 1,106 yards, first round hit rates were less than 10%, with most were being pure luck by the shooters own admission. That is 2-3 hits out of 34. Don't care what caliber they are shooting, that would not work in the field period.

Correct. Because shooting on demand in a situation you don’t control, under even the smallest amount of time/phyiscal/emotional stress, in terrain you e never even seen let alone shot in;

Any chance you all plan to follow up on this test and maybe do something bigger?

Bigger? There are 6 classes this year, and all data is collected as always.

 

[roadrunner]

No, your “point” was disingenuous and misleading at best, if not outright dishonesty. By your response to being questioned about it, the latter is most probable. And, neat that you used AI to form a response.

Just...wow...

 

[Article 4]

We miss because we suck.

Thats funny, I almost said that same thing but to me the caliber size makes no difference in the amount of suck LOL

The shooters- but that’s the point: the “larger” cartridges aren’t providing the “margin for error” that people believe.

Agree, with a complete miss. Disagree with a partial miss. Meaning they hit the animal but not perfectly.

Correct. Because shooting on demand in a situation you don’t control, under even the smallest amount of time/phyiscal/emotional stress, in terrain you e never even seen let alone shot in;

Agree - a hit on the range at distance XXX does not translate automatically to a hit in the field

First round hits matter but based on the data you show, 2 hits out of 34 in the field with smaller calibers doesn't prove much. Especially if the "hits" were anywhere on the target -vs- vitals.

Smaller calibers do have some advantages, especially in range/PRS/learning and other situations. In hunting situations with all things being the same, larger bullets are more effective.

 

[5811]

No, that is not what my answer said at all. Read it closely

We must have different understandings of what it means to "decrease incapacitation times."

 

[Ucsdryder]

This a .223 with 75gr. BTHP
View attachment 806741

And a 300 PRC with 225 ELDM
View attachment 806747


I’m not sure of the impact velocities, but Hornady’s website has lot of good calibrated gel testing. Very cool to look at.

Rifle Ammunition - Hornady Law Enforcement

“Ten bullets through one hole,” was the philosophy of J.W. Hornady, the company’s founder. This great idea of accuracy and perfection has continued from the first bullet made more than half a century ago, right through today.

www.hornadyle.com

Click on the actual bullet name that you’re interested in, and it’ll bring you to a new page. Scroll down and you’ll see “ballistics” and “gelatin”. Select gelatin to see all the testing for that bullet.

Good stuff. As many have stated, on a 10 ring, it probably doesn’t matter what you use, but on a less than ideal shot, this is why most people use something in the middle .264-.308.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Your last sentence is at least correct. Although you use a double negative to say it, perhaps a freudian slip, what science agrees with. Kinetic energy KE = 0.5 • m • v2, expanding rounds can cause extensive damage, such as pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels, and liquefying organs.

Try it yourself

Bullet Energy Calculator

Find out how much energy a bullet fired from a weapon carries using this bullet energy calculator.

www.omnicalculator.com

I’ve tried to have good faith conversations with you in the past that involved scientific papers on the matter. None of the papers you provided came to the same conclusions you do about pressure waves as it relates to terminal ballistics.

As such, don’t be surprised that your reputation proceeds you as a fudd and incapable of having a thoughtful conversation.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

We must have different understandings of what it means to "decrease incapacitation times."

He thought that was a double negative so don’t lean on his understanding.

 

[Article 4]

He thought that was a double negative so don’t lean on his understanding.

I did misread it. Ok - but the statement is still wrong.

So tell me then. When a grenade goes off inside a close space (berger inside an animal) and it drops dead on the spot - which by the way is the exact reason Berger builds bullets that way, how does that NOT decrease incapacitation time to zero? Versus a bullet that goes all the way through and the animal runs 100 yards for 10 seconds to die and then isnt fully dead for some minutes later once it does?

 

[ARK_Ginger]

I did misread it. Ok - but the statement is still wrong.

So tell me then. When a grenade goes off inside a close space (berger inside an animal) and it drops dead on the spot - which by the way is the exact reason Berger builds bullets that way, how does that NOT decrease incapacitation time to zero? Versus a bullet that goes all the way through and the animal runs 100 yards for 10 seconds to die and then isnt fully dead for some minutes later once it does?

The fragments from a fragmenting bullet damages more tissue compared to a non-fragmenting bullet. The magnitude of the ballistic pressure wave is a separate variable, which I’ve seen no scientific literature on as it relates to incapacitation times.

In more scientific terms, fragmenting bullets conduct more Work in the system than non-fragmenting bullets.

 

[hereinaz]

I would also like to hear the rodeo story if you don't mind, Arizona can make for some tough shot opportunities. The amount of missed animals here because guys and gals couldn't "get proned out" is numerous.

This is why I went to tripod 100% of the time and practiced in the field… left the bipod at home.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

This is why I went to tripod 100% of the time and practiced in the field… left the bipod at home.

I have a long legged bipod so I can sit down and shoot if need be. Pretty much 80% of my kill shots on game are shooting with the legs fully extended sitting on my ass. Not conventional but for myself it has been mucho effective. Definitely carry over from hunting coyotes out in the sage.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is why I went to tripod 100% of the time and practiced in the field… left the bipod at home.

Long Spartan bipod or shooting sticks is infinitely quicker and can be incredibly stable. I actually videos of two “shot opportunities” yesterday while stalking through some drainages here in AZ. Both were on moving animals who spotted me but would have still allowed for kills if I wanted to kill them. No way would there have been time for a tripod and prone off of pack or using my shorter Spartan bipod didn’t allow me enough height to get a sight picture. Seated with a long Spartan was faster than getting pack off and allowed me plenty of height for the 26 degree up hill angle shot.

I do plan to practice with a tripod this off season more to try it. Any recommendations on a unit and what type of head/adapter? I currently use all outdoorsmans stuff.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

To add to the above. It could be that I just suck with tripods and am way too slow. Would love to learn more about opportunities using them.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

No way would there have been time for a tripod and prone off of pack or using my shorter Spartan bipod didn’t allow me enough height to get a sight picture. Seated with a long Spartan was faster than getting pack off and allowed me plenty of height for the 26 degree up hill angle shot.

I killed a buck this year in the high country, and from time of spotting him to first hit had to have been 30 seconds or less. Long legged bipod made it happen because the grass was way too tall to prone out. I spotted him in bowl below me and I was up on the crest of the main ridgeline. Either he detected me or had been bumped by another hunter but he was on the move. Shot him 30 yards before he was over the finger ridge and out of sight. Being fast is almost a must for shooting bucks these days.

 

[Runwilderness]

@Article 4 , can you explain which details of the paper you cite above support the arguments you are making relative to the additional margin of error gained through increased caliber?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S175161611630412X

I haven’t bought the paper, but the abstract and introduction that are free appear to me to be more concerned with how one models ballistics gel rather than comparison of caliber, bullet construction, or relative incapacitation speed on living animals. The experimental section snippet only mentions 7.62x39 ball ammo, if the paper provides further inside into performance of match or hunting bullets, I’m all ears.

 

[The Guide]

This is why I went to tripod 100% of the time and practiced in the field… left the bipod at home.

I think the bipod vs tripod thing is very terrain determinant. Some areas a tripod would be tough to get setup and shoot from without being seen while other areas a bipod is too low or there is no place to get flat and see the game. Both are excellent tools but neither is perfect. Just like every other thing we argue about on here. Bullets, cartridges, rifles, scopes, slings, and every other object is a compromise between two extremes.

Jay

 

[hereinaz]

I have a long legged bipod so I can sit down and shoot if need be. Pretty much 80% of my kill shots on game are shooting with the legs fully extended sitting on my ass. Not conventional but for myself it has been mucho effective. Definitely carry over from hunting coyotes out in the sage.

You definitely know how effective it is off the ground. I basically use my tripod in the same way.

Adding the third leg into the mix can get you even more stability for longer range shots, especially sitting in a slope.

This was Alaska, tall brush and steep slope. I shot a 7mm Sherman Short mag, 180 VLD grain at that time. Since, I have dropped to a 25 SST for my “big gun” and will be building a 22 creed for my long deer rifle. I have a short 22BR that I love too.

I am down with reducing recoil. years ago, I was on a tripod shooting Coues, at 540ish, and my first shot was a miss high because of a little awkwardness in my position based on terrain and recoil of my 7mm. Then on a later hunt when it absolutely destroyed a Coues at 730, I realized I had way more recoil/destruction than I needed.

A 6mm creed is a great choice. If I had to choose just one caliber, it would be the 6mm or .25.

I shot the 6xc in comps years ago when I was just getting into long range, and built a 6 creed when it came out. Am shooting 6bra now. Love me some 6mm for long range, but it’s close enough to my 25sst that I went with the 22 creed so I can keep velocity out of a shorter barrel suppressed.

 

[Article 4]

The fragments from a fragmenting bullet damages more tissue compared to a non-fragmenting bullet. The magnitude of the ballistic pressure wave is a separate variable, which I’ve seen no scientific literature on as it relates to incapacitation times.

In more scientific terms, fragmenting bullets conduct more Work in the system than non-fragmenting bullets.

Exactly my point - adding to that and OP post with 6 and 7mm bullets - all other things the same, the larger the bullet - the larger the hole, the more energy, and the more of everything to decrease incapacitation time (death)