Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

[MarkOrtiz]

Maybe it’s not just the cartridge, but also the 712 yards and I need a 6 cm that will kill at 800 yards that is more of an issue. People have been killing elk with 7rm, 300wm, etc for years. Guns that have more recoil than 7mm PRC. I bet this new I have to shoot long distance (600 yards plus) trend causes more rodeos than cartridge selection.

 

[littlebigtine]

Maybe it’s not just the cartridge, but also the 712 yards and I need a 6 cm that will kill at 800 yards that is more of an issue. People have been killing elk with 7rm, 300wm, etc for years. Guns that have more recoil than 7mm PRC. I bet this new I have to shoot long distance (600 yards plus) trend causes more rodeos than cartridge selection.

what is the bigger variable? Or larger determining factor when we talk about a miss? The cartridge or the practice leading up to the shot?

Imo between a 7prc down to a 6 creed in field conditions, 700+ yards, 9# rifle, adrenaline, whether you miss or hit; 95% percent( imo) of it is dependent upon what type of practice and how much practice.

You should be able to configure a 7 prc so that you can spot impacts, it will be easier to spot with a 6mm creed. The amount of accuracy gained by the smaller recoiling gun is limited by the higher recoiling gun’s higher bc wind bucking abilities.

How many people actually go out and shoot a 22 creed type cartridge and 7prc type cartridge together, same conditions and compare hit rates? Other than @huntnful


Somebody that does regularly, please enlighten us on the actual difference in accuracy between lower recoiling cartridges and higher recoiling cartridges at 700+

@huntnful please share your thoughts because I know you just posted a thread referring to this topic

 

[Bluefish]

I was in a similar situation. Downsizing from 7 prc with a barrel swap. Ended up doing a 25 6.5 prc. Was easy. Used 6.5 prc bushings dies to neck down. 134g eldm has really good ballistics, I believe better than the 108. Recoil will be a little higher than the 6mm, but less than a 6.5.

 

[huntnful]

what is the bigger variable? Or larger determining factor when we talk about a miss? The cartridge or the practice leading up to the shot?

Imo between a 7prc down to a 6 creed in field conditions, 700+ yards, 9# rifle, adrenaline, whether you miss or hit; 95% percent( imo) of it is dependent upon what type of practice and how much practice.

You should be able to configure a 7 prc so that you can spot impacts, it will be easier to spot with a 6mm creed. The amount of accuracy gained by the smaller recoiling gun is limited by the higher recoiling gun’s higher bc wind bucking abilities.

How many people actually go out and shoot a 22 creed type cartridge and 7prc type cartridge together, same conditions and compare hit rates? Other than @huntnful


Somebody that does regularly, please enlighten us on the actual difference in accuracy between lower recoiling cartridges and higher recoiling cartridges at 700+

@huntnful please share your thoughts because I know you just posted a thread referring to this topic

I’m by no means an expert and have only done limited testing, just enough to kind of prove to myself that the practice and the support you choose to use seems more important than the cartridge. As well as a rifle that’s heavy enough to manage recoil if you want to shoot a larger cartridge.

I just shot my 22 CM in a heavy, but steady crosswind yesterday at 764 yards and it stacked a pretty good group. But I got the wind call from when I shot the target at 600 yards.

Practice is absolutely key for sure. I’m really planning to focus more on that this year. I’ve definitely seen that the more I shoot, the better I shoot, with all my guns.

 

[Formidilosus]

what is the bigger variable? Or larger determining factor when we talk about a miss? The cartridge or the practice leading up to the shot?

Imo between a 7prc down to a 6 creed in field conditions, 700+ yards, 9# rifle, adrenaline, whether you miss or hit; 95% percent( imo) of it is dependent upon what type of practice and how much practice.

You should be able to configure a 7 prc so that you can spot impacts, it will be easier to spot with a 6mm creed. The amount of accuracy gained by the smaller recoiling gun is limited by the higher recoiling gun’s higher bc wind bucking abilities.

How many people actually go out and shoot a 22 creed type cartridge and 7prc type cartridge together, same conditions and compare hit rates? Other than @huntnful


Somebody that does regularly, please enlighten us on the actual difference in accuracy between lower recoiling cartridges and higher recoiling cartridges at 700+

Last year we did three open Shoot2Hunt with 34 students firing just over 40,000 rounds. The vast majority of shooters were “very” experienced shooters and hunters and all but 2-3 stated that they had a on demand killing range of 600 plus yards when they showed up. Cartridges ranged from 223 to 300 RUM’s, and most everything in between, with several well assembled and very accurate 7 PRC’s with 180gr ELD-M’s and large 6.5 magnums with 147gr ELD-M’s.

In pretesting in mountainous terrain that the students had never shot in or seen, on life size steel big animal targets painted naturally, and with all the scenarios and shots being recreations of actual shots from hunting the year prior- from just under 100 yards to 1,106 yards.
About a third of the targets people ran out of time before getting a shot off. Of the ones that were fired, first round hit rate in vitals from 100 to 427 yards was about 20%, and when including hits to the legs/guts/antlers about less than 40%. Of the target beyond 427 yards to 1,106 yards, first round hit rates were less than 10%, with most were being pure luck by the shooters own admission.
The performance of the cartridge and bullet had no correlation with hit rates with three exceptions- sub 427 yards, 223’s got almost all of the first round hits. Past 427 yards, the 22 creedmoor was the only one that stood out, and mainly from 2-3 shooters that used it. @Dioni A did well comparatively with using a 6.5 PRC. Out of 28 shooters, the only one to get a first round hit on the elks vitals at 1,106 yards was from a 223 with 77gr TMK (though she had been through a partial course two years prior).

If you looked at a graph showing the amount of scenarios that the shooters got a shot off at all, the first round hits rates, and especially the second round corrections on wounded animals- 22cals and Dioni shooting his 6.5 PRC dominated. As recoil/rifle movement went up, success went down. Interestingly, even though Dioni shot his 6.5 PRC well in the course, he used a 22CM exclusively this year for hunting instead, and I believe he stated in part because of what he saw happening in the course he attended.


Removing myself, the two shooters with the highest hit rates on pretest (again never having seen or shot the targets or in that place at all) were the other two main teachers. Both using 308 winchesters, and 3-9x’ish MOA scopes- both were about 80% first round hit rate in vitals out to 700 yards.


Note:

During the course while training, and the last day of again shooting novel shots in the field that the shooters have never shot or seen before- out to 500 to 600 yards the hit rate was nearly identical between 223’s and 7 PRC’s- including 1st round vital hits which averaged over 70% in very high winds. Again, the 22 cm showed to have the best performance from 400-1,200 yards, with two (IIRC) shooters using 6 CM’s and doing about the same (that is over 80% first round hits out to 800 plus yards) as the 22cm users.


Most of the responses from people at the end was that it doesn’t really matter what the cartridge/bullet’s external ballistics within reason is up to about 500 yards- either you can call the wind well enough, or you can’t; there isn’t much difference when shooting side by side in realistic scenarios. Past 500 yards, fast 22’s and 6mm’s ruled. All/nearly all, stated that they would trade the ballistic performance advantage of the big magnums for the shootability and absolute ability to watch the rounds hit of the smaller cartridges.

 

[littlebigtine]

Last year we did three open Shoot2Hunt with 34 students firing just over 40,000 rounds. The vast majority of shooters were “very” experienced shooters and hunters and all but 2-3 stated that they had a on demand killing range of 600 plus yards when they showed up. Cartridges ranged from 223 to 300 RUM’s, and most everything in between, with several well assembled and very accurate 7 PRC’s with 180gr ELD-M’s and large 6.5 magnums with 147gr ELD-M’s.

In pretesting in mountainous terrain that the students had never shot in or seen, on life size steel big animal targets painted naturally, and with all the scenarios and shots being recreations of actual shots from hunting the year prior- from just under 100 yards to 1,106 yards.
About a third of the targets people ran out of time before getting a shot off. Of the ones that were fired, first round hit rate in vitals from 100 to 427 yards was about 20%, and when including hits to the legs/guts/antlers about less than 40%. Of the target beyond 427 yards to 1,106 yards, first round hit rates were less than 10%, with most were being pure luck by the shooters own admission.
The performance of the cartridge and bullet had no correlation with hit rates with three exceptions- sub 427 yards, 223’s got almost all of the first round hits. Past 427 yards, the 22 creedmoor was the only one that stood out, and mainly from 2-3 shooters that used it. @Dioni A did well comparatively with using a 6.5 PRC. Out of 28 shooters, the only one to get a first round hit on the elks vitals at 1,106 yards was from a 223 with 77gr TMK (though she had been through a partial course two years prior).

If you looked at a graph showing the amount of scenarios that the shooters got a shot off at all, the first round hits rates, and especially the second round corrections on wounded animals- 22cals and Dioni shooting his 6.5 PRC dominated. As recoil/rifle movement went up, success went down. Interestingly, even though Dioni shot his 6.5 PRC well in the course, he used a 22CM exclusively this year for hunting instead, and I believe he stated in part because of what he saw happening in the course he attended.


Removing myself, the two shooters with the highest hit rates on pretest (again never having seen or shot the targets or in that place at all) were the other two main teachers. Both using 308 winchesters, and 3-9x’ish MOA scopes- both were about 80% first round hit rate in vitals out to 700 yards.


Note:

During the course while training, and the last day of again shooting novel shots in the field that the shooters have never shot or seen before- out to 500 to 600 yards the hit rate was nearly identical between 223’s and 7 PRC’s- including 1st round vital hits which averaged over 70% in very high winds. Again, the 22 cm showed to have the best performance from 400-1,200 yards, with two (IIRC) shooters using 6 CM’s and doing about the same (that is over 80% first round hits out to 800 plus yards) as the 22cm users.


Most of the responses from people at the end was that it doesn’t really matter what the cartridge/bullet’s external ballistics within reason is up to about 500 yards- either you can call the wind well enough, or you can’t; there isn’t much difference when shooting side by side in realistic scenarios. Past 500 yards, fast 22’s and 6mm’s ruled. All/nearly all, stated that they would trade the ballistic performance advantage of the big magnums for the shootability and absolute ability to watch the rounds hit of the smaller cartridges.

Opinions aside, it sounds like from a scientific perspective the correlation between hit rates and recoil is anything but strong? It also sounds like the shooter’s decision preferring a lower recoiling cartridge has more to do with spotting impacts rather than hit rates?
It doesnt sound like the evidence juiced from these numbers is sufficient for dogma.
Do you think that another factor to consider is the volume of shots during shoot2hunt courses? Great for practice with a lower recoiling cartridge. Not great if your getting thumped by a 300 rum. Who wouldnt prefer a 22cm on steel after that class?

My greatest take-away from those course stats is the difference in hit rates before and during training.
10% hit rates in vitals to what I can guess would be +40% across all cartridges?

 

[Dioni A]

Form summed it up pretty well. I would trade ballistic performance for shootability every time now. I think the 22 or 6mm creed is the answer for pretty much everything.

These were all 22 creedmoor 88 eldm kills from this year. They work good.

 

[Formidilosus]

Opinions aside, it sounds like from a scientific perspective the correlation between hit rates and recoil is anything but strong?

What? 36 individuals and, hundreds of novel shots is more than sufficient to start drawing actual data conclusions from.

It also sounds like the shooter’s decision preferring a lower recoiling cartridge has more to do with spotting impacts rather than hit rates?
It doesnt sound like the evidence juiced from these numbers is sufficient for dogma.

First - define “dogma” in the context you are meaning it.

Second, how did you get any of that from what I wrote?

It is one thing to state- “I don’t believe you”, which is fine. And that can be another conversation and a couple dozen forum members can share what they saw. It’s an entirely different thing to say “ok, I’ll take at face value what was stated were the actual results” and then come to what you said above.

Do you think that another factor to consider is the volume of shots during shoot2hunt courses? Great for practice with a lower recoiling cartridge. Not great if your getting thumped by a 300 rum. Who wouldnt prefer a 22cm on steel after that class?

Every shooter but three IIRC shot 90+% of rounds with 223’s. The vast majority of people bring their big “serious” hunting rifle, and a “practice 223”. They shootbtheir “real” gun in pre test; and throughout the class, and especially in the last day or two- everyone/nearly everyone shoots the big guns side by side with their practice 223; they are seeing in real time what the differences are.

My greatest take-away from those course stats is the difference in hit rates before and during training. 10% hit rates in vitals to what I can guess would be +40% across all cartridges?

I do not understand what you are trying to ask here.

 

[huntnful]

In pretesting in mountainous terrain that the students had never shot in or seen, on life size steel big animal targets painted naturally, and with all the scenarios and shots being recreations of actual shots from hunting the year prior- from just under 100 yards to 1,106 yards.
About a third of the targets people ran out of time before getting a shot off.

I need to be super clear that NONE of my LIMITED testing was done under any time crunch whatsoever. I was just simply shooting them side by side at the same target, in the same conditions out 1000-1200 yards.

A time crunch would absolutely change things I’m sure. I just don’t encounter timed scenarios very often in the field and the ones I have encountered have all been at close range which were accomplished pretty easily. So I just don’t use that metric for my own decisions.

Looking around, I have 4 animals that I shot quickly with a rifle. They were all under 100 yards and only 2 of them were actually aware my presence to the point I actually needed to shoot them quickly. The other two didn’t even know I was there.

So that is why my perspective is 100% skewed by how I hunt, and the scenarios I’ve been presented with in the field. I am virtually never rushed and only 2 animals that I’ve killed with a rifle have even been aware of my presence before I pulled the trigger.



I like and appreciate your data because it is gathered across a lot of people and scenarios that incorporates a wide variety of hunting styles and scenarios encountered by many hunters in many environments. The data collected there is more fitting for the vast majority of hunters. More animals would die if everyone had a 6 CM, a 600 yard MER and practiced 1000 rounds a year. No one is doing that with a 300 WM.

 

[littlebigtine]

What? 36 individuals and, hundreds of novel shots is more than sufficient to start drawing actual data conclusions from.




First - define “dogma” in the context you are meaning it.

Second, how did you get any of that from what I wrote?

It is one thing to state- “I don’t believe you”, which is fine. And that can be another conversation and a couple dozen forum members can share what they saw. It’s an entirely different thing to say “ok, I’ll take at face value what was stated were the actual results” and then come to what you said above.



Every shooter but three IIRC shot 90+% of rounds with 223’s. The vast majority of people bring their big “serious” hunting rifle, and a “practice 223”. They shootbtheir “real” gun in pre test; and throughout the class, and especially in the last day or two- everyone/nearly everyone shoots the big guns side by side with their practice 223; they are seeing in real time what the differences are.









I do not understand what you are trying to ask here

What I am curious to know is this: if you are shooting the same amount of rounds for practice( so the familiarity to the recoil, ergonomics of the gun, round count, etc is consistent) in both a 22 and a 6.5/7 prc. What is the actual difference in hit rates 700+ yds I can imagine quite a few variables that could impact the results concluded from a shoot2hunt class how you have described it but I have never attended one so my conjecture is useless.
I am asking you what you think.
I must have misunderstood your post but to me it sounded like people would shoot poorly in the pretest and then shoot better as the course went on.
You also said that a 6.5 prc was competitive with 22s
The instructors are all crack shots with 308s
This sounds like practice makes perfect and maybe its the indian not the arrow

I meant this definition of dogma:

1. A principle or statement of ideas, or a group of such principles or statements, especially when considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically.

Do you think I have the right to be critical of somebody who tells me that a 22 cree is objectively more accurate than a 7prc?

 

[Formidilosus]

What I am curious to know is this: if you are shooting the same amount of rounds for practice( so the familiarity to the recoil, ergonomics of the gun, round count, etc is consistent) in both a 22 and a 6.5/7 prc. What is the actual difference in hit rates 700+ yds

Demonstrably better on average off a flat range.

Why aren’t PRS matches dominated by large 7mm and 30cal magnums? Why isn’t NRL hunter?

I can imagine quite a few variables that could impact the results concluded from a shoot2hunt class how you have described it but I have never attended one so my conjecture is useless.

There are lots of variables, however with enough random data, those variables average out. A lot of trends can be stated with more than 30 random people and 40,000+ rounds. And, that has been happening for over a decade.

I am asking you what you think.

I don’t “think” anything. Results in the field are what I pay attention to. Everything shows that less gun movement, less muzzle blast, and less recoil results in fewer screw ups on animals… and quicker recovery from the screws ups when they do happen. More gun movement, more muzzle blast, and more recoil does not help anyone hit things more. The more you deviate from perfect flat range conditions, the more that shows up.

I must have misunderstood your post but to me it sounded like people would shoot poorly in the pretest and then shoot better as the course went on.

Yes- nearly everyone (who believes themselves to be long range competent) shoots extremely poorly in the beginning. And yes, they get massively better in 5 days. However- those same shooters hit more targets at the start of the course with smaller cartridges- and more targets at the end of the course with smaller cartridges.

You also said that a 6.5 prc was competitive with 22s

No- I said that one person was competitive with a 6.5PRC with others shooting 22cals- and that same person hits better with a 22CM than he does a 6.5 PRC. I can shoot unbraked 8lb 30cal magnums with higher on demand hits than the vast majority of people can with any gun- but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a performance cost to my ability when I do so.

The instructors are all crack shots with 308s
This sounds like practice makes perfect and maybe its the indian not the arrow

? Correct. More gun movement, more muzzle blast, and more recoil do not help people kill more animals in the vast majority of hunting situations that the vast majority of hunters are in. Does a .8 G1 BC bullet at 3,000fps MV have better external ballistics than a .4 bc bullet at 3,000fps MV? Of course. However there is a price for that performance, and the price is shootability. If there weren’t that price- then all PRS and NRL matches would be won using large 7mm and 30cal cartridges. The reality is that in PRS people through evidence in scores, shoot the lowest recoil cartridge that will consistently show enough splash on shot up steel plates to get calls from the spotter. In NRL- they made it so that 6mm and below couldn’t be used- because everyone would be using them.

I meant this definition of dogma:

1. A principle or statement of ideas, or a group of such principles or statements, especially when considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically.

You believe that anything being written is accepted uncritically? Giving results and data is about as objective and “critical” as can be given. Not once have I said “I like”, “I think”, or “I feel”.

Do you think I have the right to be critical of somebody who tells me that a 22 cree is objectively more accurate than a 7prc?

You can be critical of anything you want- however, I’m not seeing where you are giving any critical feedback. You are not refuting any of the data with your own, and you aren’t really asking clarifying questions. You were given what is probably the largest source of data about this specific subject that exists (and only from a single year), that is also corroborated by every competition that in someway tries to mimic similar shots, ranges, setups.

There certainly are very specific scenarios and setups where large 7mm and 30cals perform fantastically- pure ambush hunting from the prone, at completely clueless animals, using a 13+ pound braked rifle… sure. However- that is not the vast majority of hunters, and even of those that do so- by being so specialized, they are missing opportunities even if they don’t realize it.

 

[Justin Crossley]

More gun movement, more muzzle blast, and more recoil do not help people kill more animals in the vast majority of hunting situations that the vast majority of hunters are in. Does a .8 G1 BC bullet at 3,000fps MV have better external ballistics than a .4 bc bullet at 3,000fps MV? Of course. However there is a price for that performance, and the price is shootability. If there weren’t that price- then all PRS and NRL matches would be won using large 7mm and 30cal cartridges. The reality is that in PRS people through evidence in scores, shoot the lowest recoil cartridge that will consistently show enough splash on shot up steel plates to get calls from the spotter. In NRL- they made it so that 6mm and below couldn’t be used- because everyone would be using them.

This^^ 100%

I started competing with a 6.5-06 AI pushing 140-grain bullets in the 3100-3200 fps range and 147-grain at 3000 fps. I did pretty well when there were no time constraints and all the shots were prone. I even performed okay in NRL competitions with it.

Last season, I switched to a 6.5 CM pushing 140-grain bullets at 2775 fps, and I made the podium at three out of four matches. My increased success wasn't only due to a lower recoiling cartridge, but that was a lot of it.

Now, I'm finishing up a 25 CM build I'll compete and hunt with next season. It's the lightest recoiling rifle allowed in the Open Light division of NRL Hunter competitions.

 

[huntnful]

This^^ 100%

I started competing with a 6.5-06 AI pushing 140-grain bullets in the 3100-3200 fps range and 147-grain at 3000 fps. I did pretty well when there were no time constraints and all the shots were prone. I even performed okay in NRL competitions with it.

Last season, I switched to a 6.5 CM pushing 140-grain bullets at 2775 fps, and I made the podium at three out of four matches. My increased success wasn't only due to a lower recoiling cartridge, but that was a lot of it.

Now, I'm finishing up a 25 CM build I'll compete and hunt with next season. It's the lightest recoiling rifle allowed in the Open Light division of NRL Hunter competitions.

This is great info!!

Gained skilled through practice AND gunning down lead to more hits and more podium placements.

Since you lived it, like any long range hunter has. How would that new 25 CM compare on that missed wind call (2-3MPH maybe?) on that big buck at 800 yards in WY, and what do you think the outcome would have been with that cartridge, versus the other cartridge shooting the 215’s? I am not sure of the speeds with either round, or the bullet planning to be used in the 25 CM.

Possibly faster follow up shot and another round in the buck with the 25CM? Or if no follow up shot would have been made, where would the 25 CM bullet have landed with the same missed wind call and do you think the outcome would be the same?

Or are you now just like “F that, I’m not shooting that far again anyways”.

I’m not trying to open up old wounds by any means at all man. This a genuine question, because you have field experience with both the “potential” benefits of a larger high BC bullet at longer ranges, and are now gunning down yourself because you see a benefit to it after several years of shooting since that WY hunt. Definitely looking forward to your perspective and thoughts now!

 

[Justin Crossley]

This is great info!!

Gained skilled through practice AND gunning down lead to more hits and more podium placements.

Since you lived it, like any long range hunter has. How would that new 25 CM compare on that missed wind call (2-3MPH maybe?) on that big buck at 800 yards in WY, and what do you think the outcome would have been with that cartridge, versus the other cartridge shooting the 215’s? I am not sure of the speeds with either round, or the bullet planning to be used in the 25 CM.

Possibly faster follow up shot and another round in the buck with the 25CM? Or if no follow up shot would have been made, where would the 25 CM bullet have landed with the same missed wind call and do you think the outcome would be the same?

Or are you now just like “F that, I’m not shooting that far again anyways”.

I’m not trying to open up old wounds by any means at all man. This a genuine question, because you have field experience with both the “potential” benefits of a larger high BC bullet at longer ranges, and are now gunning down yourself because you see a benefit to it after several years of shooting since that WY hunt. Definitely looking forward to your perspective and thoughts now!

Great question.

For those who don't know, I shot a bedded buck a few years back with a 300 WSM at 803 yards that required a follow-up shot.

The buck was angled toward me, almost straight on. I aimed just to the right of straight in the middle of his brisket, which would put my bullet right through the vitals. My shot hit about six inches right of my point of aim and did not enter the vital area as planned. Instead, the 215 Berger hit the front shoulder, went through the guts, and lodged in the opposite hind quarter.

I missed as he walked behind some trees and had to shoot him again after I found him bedded the following morning. A really bad situation.

Okay, to answer the question, no, I would not take that shot today. I would shoot a deer at 800 yards if it were standing broadside.

My 300 WSM pushes the 215 Bergers at 2850 fps. The plan for the 25 CM is to use 135-grain ELD-Ms at about 2900 fps. The windage correction at 2-4 mph is almost exactly the same between the two. I can't say for sure that the 134 ELD-M would have killed the buck if hit in the same spot but I don't believe the "performance" would have been worse.

The 25 CM has way less recoil. I can stay on target better, and follow-up shots are much easier.

.308 cal, 215 Berger at 2850 fps



.257 cal, 134 ELD-M at 2900 fps