Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

[MarkOrtiz]

Maybe it’s not just the cartridge, but also the 712 yards and I need a 6 cm that will kill at 800 yards that is more of an issue. People have been killing elk with 7rm, 300wm, etc for years. Guns that have more recoil than 7mm PRC. I bet this new I have to shoot long distance (600 yards plus) trend causes more rodeos than cartridge selection.

 

[littlebigtine]

Maybe it’s not just the cartridge, but also the 712 yards and I need a 6 cm that will kill at 800 yards that is more of an issue. People have been killing elk with 7rm, 300wm, etc for years. Guns that have more recoil than 7mm PRC. I bet this new I have to shoot long distance (600 yards plus) trend causes more rodeos than cartridge selection.

what is the bigger variable? Or larger determining factor when we talk about a miss? The cartridge or the practice leading up to the shot?

Imo between a 7prc down to a 6 creed in field conditions, 700+ yards, 9# rifle, adrenaline, whether you miss or hit; 95% percent( imo) of it is dependent upon what type of practice and how much practice.

You should be able to configure a 7 prc so that you can spot impacts, it will be easier to spot with a 6mm creed. The amount of accuracy gained by the smaller recoiling gun is limited by the higher recoiling gun’s higher bc wind bucking abilities.

How many people actually go out and shoot a 22 creed type cartridge and 7prc type cartridge together, same conditions and compare hit rates? Other than @huntnful


Somebody that does regularly, please enlighten us on the actual difference in accuracy between lower recoiling cartridges and higher recoiling cartridges at 700+

@huntnful please share your thoughts because I know you just posted a thread referring to this topic

 

[Bluefish]

I was in a similar situation. Downsizing from 7 prc with a barrel swap. Ended up doing a 25 6.5 prc. Was easy. Used 6.5 prc bushings dies to neck down. 134g eldm has really good ballistics, I believe better than the 108. Recoil will be a little higher than the 6mm, but less than a 6.5.

 

[huntnful]

what is the bigger variable? Or larger determining factor when we talk about a miss? The cartridge or the practice leading up to the shot?

Imo between a 7prc down to a 6 creed in field conditions, 700+ yards, 9# rifle, adrenaline, whether you miss or hit; 95% percent( imo) of it is dependent upon what type of practice and how much practice.

You should be able to configure a 7 prc so that you can spot impacts, it will be easier to spot with a 6mm creed. The amount of accuracy gained by the smaller recoiling gun is limited by the higher recoiling gun’s higher bc wind bucking abilities.

How many people actually go out and shoot a 22 creed type cartridge and 7prc type cartridge together, same conditions and compare hit rates? Other than @huntnful


Somebody that does regularly, please enlighten us on the actual difference in accuracy between lower recoiling cartridges and higher recoiling cartridges at 700+

@huntnful please share your thoughts because I know you just posted a thread referring to this topic

I’m by no means an expert and have only done limited testing, just enough to kind of prove to myself that the practice and the support you choose to use seems more important than the cartridge. As well as a rifle that’s heavy enough to manage recoil if you want to shoot a larger cartridge.

I just shot my 22 CM in a heavy, but steady crosswind yesterday at 764 yards and it stacked a pretty good group. But I got the wind call from when I shot the target at 600 yards.

Practice is absolutely key for sure. I’m really planning to focus more on that this year. I’ve definitely seen that the more I shoot, the better I shoot, with all my guns.

 

[Formidilosus]

what is the bigger variable? Or larger determining factor when we talk about a miss? The cartridge or the practice leading up to the shot?

Imo between a 7prc down to a 6 creed in field conditions, 700+ yards, 9# rifle, adrenaline, whether you miss or hit; 95% percent( imo) of it is dependent upon what type of practice and how much practice.

You should be able to configure a 7 prc so that you can spot impacts, it will be easier to spot with a 6mm creed. The amount of accuracy gained by the smaller recoiling gun is limited by the higher recoiling gun’s higher bc wind bucking abilities.

How many people actually go out and shoot a 22 creed type cartridge and 7prc type cartridge together, same conditions and compare hit rates? Other than @huntnful


Somebody that does regularly, please enlighten us on the actual difference in accuracy between lower recoiling cartridges and higher recoiling cartridges at 700+

Last year we did three open Shoot2Hunt with 34 students firing just over 40,000 rounds. The vast majority of shooters were “very” experienced shooters and hunters and all but 2-3 stated that they had a on demand killing range of 600 plus yards when they showed up. Cartridges ranged from 223 to 300 RUM’s, and most everything in between, with several well assembled and very accurate 7 PRC’s with 180gr ELD-M’s and large 6.5 magnums with 147gr ELD-M’s.

In pretesting in mountainous terrain that the students had never shot in or seen, on life size steel big animal targets painted naturally, and with all the scenarios and shots being recreations of actual shots from hunting the year prior- from just under 100 yards to 1,106 yards.
About a third of the targets people ran out of time before getting a shot off. Of the ones that were fired, first round hit rate in vitals from 100 to 427 yards was about 20%, and when including hits to the legs/guts/antlers about less than 40%. Of the target beyond 427 yards to 1,106 yards, first round hit rates were less than 10%, with most were being pure luck by the shooters own admission.
The performance of the cartridge and bullet had no correlation with hit rates with three exceptions- sub 427 yards, 223’s got almost all of the first round hits. Past 427 yards, the 22 creedmoor was the only one that stood out, and mainly from 2-3 shooters that used it. @Dioni A did well comparatively with using a 6.5 PRC. Out of 28 shooters, the only one to get a first round hit on the elks vitals at 1,106 yards was from a 223 with 77gr TMK (though she had been through a partial course two years prior).

If you looked at a graph showing the amount of scenarios that the shooters got a shot off at all, the first round hits rates, and especially the second round corrections on wounded animals- 22cals and Dioni shooting his 6.5 PRC dominated. As recoil/rifle movement went up, success went down. Interestingly, even though Dioni shot his 6.5 PRC well in the course, he used a 22CM exclusively this year for hunting instead, and I believe he stated in part because of what he saw happening in the course he attended.


Removing myself, the two shooters with the highest hit rates on pretest (again never having seen or shot the targets or in that place at all) were the other two main teachers. Both using 308 winchesters, and 3-9x’ish MOA scopes- both were about 80% first round hit rate in vitals out to 700 yards.


Note:

During the course while training, and the last day of again shooting novel shots in the field that the shooters have never shot or seen before- out to 500 to 600 yards the hit rate was nearly identical between 223’s and 7 PRC’s- including 1st round vital hits which averaged over 70% in very high winds. Again, the 22 cm showed to have the best performance from 400-1,200 yards, with two (IIRC) shooters using 6 CM’s and doing about the same (that is over 80% first round hits out to 800 plus yards) as the 22cm users.


Most of the responses from people at the end was that it doesn’t really matter what the cartridge/bullet’s external ballistics within reason is up to about 500 yards- either you can call the wind well enough, or you can’t; there isn’t much difference when shooting side by side in realistic scenarios. Past 500 yards, fast 22’s and 6mm’s ruled. All/nearly all, stated that they would trade the ballistic performance advantage of the big magnums for the shootability and absolute ability to watch the rounds hit of the smaller cartridges.

 

[littlebigtine]

Last year we did three open Shoot2Hunt with 34 students firing just over 40,000 rounds. The vast majority of shooters were “very” experienced shooters and hunters and all but 2-3 stated that they had a on demand killing range of 600 plus yards when they showed up. Cartridges ranged from 223 to 300 RUM’s, and most everything in between, with several well assembled and very accurate 7 PRC’s with 180gr ELD-M’s and large 6.5 magnums with 147gr ELD-M’s.

In pretesting in mountainous terrain that the students had never shot in or seen, on life size steel big animal targets painted naturally, and with all the scenarios and shots being recreations of actual shots from hunting the year prior- from just under 100 yards to 1,106 yards.
About a third of the targets people ran out of time before getting a shot off. Of the ones that were fired, first round hit rate in vitals from 100 to 427 yards was about 20%, and when including hits to the legs/guts/antlers about less than 40%. Of the target beyond 427 yards to 1,106 yards, first round hit rates were less than 10%, with most were being pure luck by the shooters own admission.
The performance of the cartridge and bullet had no correlation with hit rates with three exceptions- sub 427 yards, 223’s got almost all of the first round hits. Past 427 yards, the 22 creedmoor was the only one that stood out, and mainly from 2-3 shooters that used it. @Dioni A did well comparatively with using a 6.5 PRC. Out of 28 shooters, the only one to get a first round hit on the elks vitals at 1,106 yards was from a 223 with 77gr TMK (though she had been through a partial course two years prior).

If you looked at a graph showing the amount of scenarios that the shooters got a shot off at all, the first round hits rates, and especially the second round corrections on wounded animals- 22cals and Dioni shooting his 6.5 PRC dominated. As recoil/rifle movement went up, success went down. Interestingly, even though Dioni shot his 6.5 PRC well in the course, he used a 22CM exclusively this year for hunting instead, and I believe he stated in part because of what he saw happening in the course he attended.


Removing myself, the two shooters with the highest hit rates on pretest (again never having seen or shot the targets or in that place at all) were the other two main teachers. Both using 308 winchesters, and 3-9x’ish MOA scopes- both were about 80% first round hit rate in vitals out to 700 yards.


Note:

During the course while training, and the last day of again shooting novel shots in the field that the shooters have never shot or seen before- out to 500 to 600 yards the hit rate was nearly identical between 223’s and 7 PRC’s- including 1st round vital hits which averaged over 70% in very high winds. Again, the 22 cm showed to have the best performance from 400-1,200 yards, with two (IIRC) shooters using 6 CM’s and doing about the same (that is over 80% first round hits out to 800 plus yards) as the 22cm users.


Most of the responses from people at the end was that it doesn’t really matter what the cartridge/bullet’s external ballistics within reason is up to about 500 yards- either you can call the wind well enough, or you can’t; there isn’t much difference when shooting side by side in realistic scenarios. Past 500 yards, fast 22’s and 6mm’s ruled. All/nearly all, stated that they would trade the ballistic performance advantage of the big magnums for the shootability and absolute ability to watch the rounds hit of the smaller cartridges.

Opinions aside, it sounds like from a scientific perspective the correlation between hit rates and recoil is anything but strong? It also sounds like the shooter’s decision preferring a lower recoiling cartridge has more to do with spotting impacts rather than hit rates?
It doesnt sound like the evidence juiced from these numbers is sufficient for dogma.
Do you think that another factor to consider is the volume of shots during shoot2hunt courses? Great for practice with a lower recoiling cartridge. Not great if your getting thumped by a 300 rum. Who wouldnt prefer a 22cm on steel after that class?

My greatest take-away from those course stats is the difference in hit rates before and during training.
10% hit rates in vitals to what I can guess would be +40% across all cartridges?

 

[Dioni A]

Form summed it up pretty well. I would trade ballistic performance for shootability every time now. I think the 22 or 6mm creed is the answer for pretty much everything.

These were all 22 creedmoor 88 eldm kills. They work good.