Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

[satchamo]

I would also like to hear the rodeo story if you don't mind, Arizona can make for some tough shot opportunities. The amount of missed animals here because guys and gals couldn't "get proned out" is numerous.

I was shooting off a large Leofoto tripod with a ball head actually and it was very stable. I had a ton of time to play it thru as the bull was bedded and took forever to get up. The problem was once he did the holes in the pinyon juniper were so sparse I rushed my shot selection because I didn’t want him to start climbing and have to redial.

Shot was 712. Hit low shoulder. Subsequent follow up barely ran under his brisket as he quartered to. I can’t entirely figure out why I was hitting low. I ranged and dialed using a vortex 4000 gb that I had just updated all external conditions on prior to the shot. We had 0 wind to speak of. And yes I trued my velocity at 700 with this rifle prior to the trip. I’m chalking it up to nerves but with any miss I’m tearing down the entire hunt and trying to find where I can improve and not make the same mistake twice. If I had more time for follow ups but I couldn’t spot my misses, my spotter was calling them but I was in such disarray after the shot I don’t know what I was hearing between ranging, dialing and trying to pick him up.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Do you reload or are you running factory ammo? With a magnum bolt face if you wanted to run 6mm you could do 6-6.5prc or 6-6.5saum. Or just run the recoil numbers on something like those 6.5calibers as an option too.

 

[satchamo]

Do you reload or are you running factory ammo? With a magnum bolt face if you wanted to run 6mm you could do 6-6.5prc or 6-6.5saum. Or just run the recoil numbers on something like those 6.5calibers as an option too.

Factory but I have a full reloading setup. I just don’t have time for it these days with 3 kids running around. I am intrigued by the 6 PRC or a 6 Saum but I gotta be realistic about what I have time for… and I’d rather be shooting if I gotta choose

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Factory but I have a full reloading setup. I just don’t have time for it these days with 3 kids running around. I am intrigued by the 6 PRC or a 6 Saum but I gotta be realistic about what I have time for… and I’d rather be shooting if I gotta choose

Sure. Run the numbers in 6.5PRC then? I honestly don't know the recoil off hand and even then I don't know your rifle weight to make it accurate.

 

[WKR]

I was shooting off a large Leofoto tripod with a ball head actually and it was very stable. I had a ton of time to play it thru as the bull was bedded and took forever to get up. The problem was once he did the holes in the pinyon juniper were so sparse I rushed my shot selection because I didn’t want him to start climbing and have to redial.

Shot was 712. Hit low shoulder. Subsequent follow up barely ran under his brisket as he quartered to. I can’t entirely figure out why I was hitting low. I ranged and dialed using a vortex 4000 gb that I had just updated all external conditions on prior to the shot. We had 0 wind to speak of. And yes I trued my velocity at 700 with this rifle prior to the trip. I’m chalking it up to nerves but with any miss I’m tearing down the entire hunt and trying to find where I can improve and not make the same mistake twice. If I had more time for follow ups but I couldn’t spot my misses, my spotter was calling them but I was in such disarray after the shot I don’t know what I was hearing between ranging, dialing and trying to pick him up.

How often did you train/practice shooting at that distance or beyond that distance, off the tripod or in field positions, before the hunt?

 

[satchamo]

How often did you train/practice shooting at that distance or beyond that distance, off the tripod or in field positions, before the hunt?

I put about a half a box through it on the hood of my truck a week before leaving

 

[Clark33]

 

[LONE HUNTER]

Yes and debated Form on the subject of energy on multiple threads, while they make good points, their opinions on energy are inconsistent with ballistics science.

So, I won't argue that putting a bigger bullet on target can be better than a smaller one but once the bullet blows through the animal all the extra energy is moot.

And I don't have enough experience with wound channels to really have an opinion on the small bullets do as much damage as the bigger ones. But where I have started to think about the debate is a lot more about probability.

What cartridge/rifle/scope/bullet combo gives the hunter the highest probability of putting the bullet where it needs to go. Given equal bad shots I think a bigger bullet is better. But when it comes to hitting them where we should a 6mm bullet in the pocket is going to be better than a 7mm-.338 bullet to the liver or guts.

So, what is it, what's the probability a hunter puts a bullet in the vitals with a big gun vs a smaller one? Which one is he more likely to make a bad shot with and have a hard time following up. Only the hunter can answer this and a lot of us won't be honest with ourselves due to ego. There's plenty of dudes who can shoot big cartridges well but there's a hell of a lot more who can't. just go look at the rifle range before deer season.

Personally, I shot 7mm rem mag for a long time. I just to make a point to my friends switched to 6.5 hipster. And my percentage on perfect vital hits almost doubled on game. That's just me though.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I put about a half a box through it on the hood of my truck a week before leaving

So many questions.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I was shooting off a large Leofoto tripod with a ball head actually and it was very stable. I had a ton of time to play it thru as the bull was bedded and took forever to get up. The problem was once he did the holes in the pinyon juniper were so sparse I rushed my shot selection because I didn’t want him to start climbing and have to redial.

Shot was 712. Hit low shoulder. Subsequent follow up barely ran under his brisket as he quartered to. I can’t entirely figure out why I was hitting low. I ranged and dialed using a vortex 4000 gb that I had just updated all external conditions on prior to the shot. We had 0 wind to speak of. And yes I trued my velocity at 700 with this rifle prior to the trip. I’m chalking it up to nerves but with any miss I’m tearing down the entire hunt and trying to find where I can improve and not make the same mistake twice. If I had more time for follow ups but I couldn’t spot my misses, my spotter was calling them but I was in such disarray after the shot I don’t know what I was hearing between ranging, dialing and trying to pick him up.

Thanks for being willing to share, most folks aren't keen to do so.

I think your 7 PRC is a good long range elk gun with the right bullet in general, but your real life situation shows a few things that we see time and time again...

1. A heavier recoiling chambering in a light weight mountain gun leads to more misses when compared to 6mm and below. I've been preaching and teaching this long before Rokslide was even a website.

2. A heavier recoiling chambering in a light weight mountain gun leads to slower target re-acquisition when a second shot may be needed. Paired with the fact that most almost never practice racking another and staying on target.

3. A heavier recoiling chambering is not a "guarantee" for a quicker time to death.

4. Shit happens when you shoot long range. 712 yards is a very long shot despite that some on the internet may call it a "chip shot".

Combining the long range shot, adrenalin, trying to get a shot off "in time", and heavier recoiling chambering/lightweight gun, this is where I see "goat rodeos" most often. Please don't misunderstand that this "never happens" with 6mm and below cartridges. This could have easily happened with a ^ Creedmoor as well at 712 yards.

The point is trying to eliminate as many errors and variables within the shot process to kill better. (Hint: larger diameter bullet is almost never the answer here on an 7.5-9 lb mountain rifle).

I think dropping down to a 6 Creedmoor shooting 108 ELDMS and training with that rifle year round (not a on a bench) will be a good move for you. If you're an AZ resident and have time to shoot I'd be happy to let you shoot some of my rifles and run through some shooting drills before you make a change.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Sure. Run the numbers in 6.5PRC then? I honestly don't know the recoil off hand and even then I don't know your rifle weight to make it accurate.

What factory 6.5 PRC bullet out of an 18-20" barrel offers more killing ability than the 108 ELDM out of an 18-20" 6CM barrel?

 

[satchamo]

So many questions.

I’m obviously joking but I could tell the question was bait for trying to flame me. I could have said I shot 2000 rounds thru the gun prior and I’d get told I should have shot 4000.

My point is I practiced a lot, I put well over 500 rounds through the gun over the summer and fall and I’ve shot off that tripod A TON.

Now back on topic of 6 cm for elk.

 

[Article 4]

So, I won't argue that putting a bigger bullet on target can be better than a smaller one but once the bullet blows through the animal all the extra energy is moot.

There is some truth to this however in both photos I posted, both bullets exit with the larger leaving behind more energy. Ill always take more!!

What cartridge/rifle/scope/bullet combo gives the hunter the highest probability of putting the bullet where it needs to go. Given equal bad shots I think a bigger bullet is better. But when it comes to hitting them where we should a 6mm bullet in the pocket is going to be better than a 7mm-.338 bullet to the liver or guts.

Agree any bullet through the vitals is going to have a better probability of a kill -vs- another bullet is not in the vitals. Punching a hole or creating a permanent cavity is always the first way a bullet kills.

Not so sure a direct comparison to a bullet that doesn't hit the vitals is a really good comparator.

 

[huntnful]

I’m obviously joking but I could tell the question was bait for trying to flame me. I could have said I shot 2000 rounds thru the gun prior and I’d get told I should have shot 4000.

My point is I practiced a lot, I put well over 500 rounds through the gun over the summer and fall and I’ve shot off that tripod A TON.

Now back on topic of 6 cm for elk.

Did you check zero when you got back? 1.5 MOA low on both hits is pretty substantial. It shows you and your data were consistent, but not correct.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

There is some truth to this however in both photos I posted, both bullets exit with the larger leaving behind more energy. Ill always take more!!

Agree any bullet through the vitals is going to have a better probability of a kill -vs- another bullet is not in the vitals. Punching a hole or creating a permanent cavity is always the first way a bullet kills.

Not so sure a direct comparison to a bullet that doesn't hit the vitals is a really good comparator.

For sure. I definitely am not making a perfect comparison here and i am not really even trying to convince which is better just what my thought process has landed on. What gives me the best probability of bringing that big buck home.


Personally I am more likely to make a bad shot with a bigger gun at least my history seems to prove that at least for myself. So honestly for me shooting the smallest cartridge that has enough horse power to do the job has made me more lethal.

 

[satchamo]

Did you check zero when you got back? 1.5 MOA low on both hits is pretty substantial. It shows you and your data were consistent, but not correct.

Will be checking when I get home. Still on the road

 

[WKR]

I’m obviously joking but I could tell the question was bait for trying to flame me. I could have said I shot 2000 rounds thru the gun prior and I’d get told I should have shot 4000.

My point is I practiced a lot, I put well over 500 rounds through the gun over the summer and fall and I’ve shot off that tripod A TON.

Now back on topic of 6 cm for elk.

It was a serious question. You'd be surprised on how many guys actually do what you joked about and go shoot at animals well beyond their capabilities.

I just ask because sometimes people rush to conclusions after rodeos like yours.

If you couldn't spot your shots and follow up at 700+,yards, there is a possibility that there is something else wrong in the system besides just too much recoil. Yes a lighter recoiling cartridge would have helped but if you had practiced follow up shots off your tripod beforehand, then there was a breakdown somewhere else that could be addressed before just throwing the gun under the bus. Spotting shots at 700 and re-engaging with a 7prc at 10x zoom isn't extremely hard off a tripod. But it could be if you aren't ready for it.

And I'm not saying a lighter recoiling gun is a bad idea at all. I like them and use them. But maybe you had that scope zoomed in too much, or you could train more in dynamic situations. Dropping to a 6cm isn't magic and it won't solve all the rodeos. Training with your system under pressure with a lighter recoiling rifle might.

And don't take this as anything other than it is. I'm not no Internet expert, I just have noticed a huge difference in my personal shooting capabilities under stress, after implementing goal oriented training. I'm not doggin on you.

 

[huntnful]

Will be checking when I get home. Still on the road

Curious to know for sure.

I’m not sure how much a 6mm would have helped in your scenario honestly. Sounds like a lot going on besides just the recoil for sure.

That was quite the tough scenario, prior to the gun even going off. You also made two good shots, with wrong data.

I’m absolutely not telling you “Don’t do it”. It just wasn’t the main factor by any means. But a small factor, certainly.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

@pods8 (Rugged Stitching) For OP's 712 yard shot...

A factory 147 ELDM 6.5 PRC out of a 18" barrel would impact at around 1,900 FPS with around 1,150 ft lbs of energy with 5 MIL UP.

A factory 108 ELDM out of 18" barrel would impact with around 1,925 FPS with around 900 ft lbs of energy with 4.5 MIL UP.

Full value 10 MPH wind favors the 147 with around .1 MIL less hold.

Free recoil energy favors the 108 with an 8 lb gun at 11.5-12 ft lbs versus the 147 in an 8 lb gun at 15.5-16 ft lbs.

For me personally, I think I'd probably favor the 6CM inside of 800 yards but I think you make a good suggestion on the 6.5 PRC if OP wants to extend his range a bit or have a bullet that can perform a touch better in very windy conditions.

As an example, for the cold bore challenge this past summer, I was shooting in some very windy conditions and used my 22" barreled .260 Rem in favor of my 6 Creedmoor. Partially because I had shot with it WAY more in novel and windy conditions than my 6 Creed at the time, and when I ran the calcs in 18-25 MPH winds I liked what I saw from that bullet over the 103 ELDX or the 108 ELDM.

 

[Blackdog317]

Now back on topic of 6 cm for elk.

Some good info in this thread on the 6 CM and 108 ELD-M at various barrel lengths. Might help with your decision. I went with 20".

6 CM & 108 ELD Velocity - Barrel Length

I’m looking to put together a new Tikka 6 Creedmoor rifle. Ideally this will be through Unknown Munitions. I’ve been digging the Shoot2Hunt podcast and the fact they’re bringing some new stock designs to market I can’t run a suppressor in Canada (because they’re too scary of course), but I...

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