Co Point Banking

[ColoradoV]

I just wanted to get it out there what the projections will be for point leap under point banking if it is reinstated in Colorado. For you that dont know Colorado is taking public comment on if it would be a good idea to bring back point banking. After looking at some projections it is something that you may want to provide your comment on.

If you have a ton of points you may get in 2 hunts instead of one as you could spend the number of points needed to draw +1 and keep the rest of your points. Now lets explore this a bit deeper.

Now if you dont have points and point banking is reinstated you will have NO CHANCE what so ever of drawing a current 1-6 point unit over the next 5 years... Why? Because point leap will happen or projections are for every unit to take 2-3 more points to draw if reinstated in 2015 that it will in 2014. There are that many points in the system.

By my count if you add in the extra 3 points it will take to draw at least 15 deer units will go at the next 5 year cycle to the 20% non res 80% res split.

So many points will be ADDED every year that this jump will be permanent and the unit you used to draw with 2 points will jump up to 5 and stay there or possible go higher..

For high point holders looking at multiple hunts for thier points think about this. If you have 11 points now and put in for a current 5 point unit well this unit will jump to 8 with banking +1 banking fee so now you will spend 9 points on a unit you could have drawn in 2014 with 5.. Leaving you with 2 and out of the game for the rest of the next 5 year structure.

Below are some numbers from another forum of what will happen to archery elk. The same will happen to deer.


If point banking were in effect in 2013 in Colorado for Archery Elk:

501 resident archers would have a total of 863 more points for the 2014 drawing.
267 nonresident archers would have a total of 596 more points for the 2014 drawing.

Leaving that many points in the point pool each year is the definition of point creep. This is in addition to hunters changing their plans to take advantage of point banking.

I am against point baking. Here is my analysis:

After the 2013 Archery elk drawing (if point banking were allowed)

346 more resident archery elk hunters would have 1 point for the 2014 drawing.
92 more resident archery elk hunters would have 2 points
35 more resident archery elk hunters would have 3 points
18 more resident archery elk hunters would have 4 points
12 more resident archery elk hunters would have 5 points
3 more resident archery elk hunters would have 6 points
3 more resident archery elk hunters would have 7 points
5 more resident archery elk hunters would have 8 points
2 more resident archery elk hunters would have 9 points
1 more resident archery elk hunter would have 10 points

137 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 1 point for the 2014 drawing.
54 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 2 points
25 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 3 points
19 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 4 points
14 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 5 points
9 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 6 points
2 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 7 points
4 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 8 points
1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 9 points
1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 10 points
1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 11 points

This data was collected from 2013ElkHuntRecap and 2013ElkDrawSummary from the 37 archery elk drawing units.

I counted the number of points over the number required to guarantee a drawn tag.

For example EE004O1A required 1 point to GUARANTEE a resident one of the 293 tags. Most hunters drew with 0 points.
23 hunters applied for EE004O1a with 2 points, so they would have 1 point after a point banking drawing.
5 hunters applied for EE004O1a with 3 points, so they would have 2 points after a point banking drawing.
1 hunter applied for EE004O1a with 7 points, so they would have 6 points after a point banking drawing.

There are also 372 drawings for Bull or either sex elk rifle or muzzleloader tags which may multiply these numbers by 10.

How many rifle or muzzleloader hunters may switch to archery to take advantage of point banking?
How many of the 67,668 hunters collecting points (EP-999-99-P) will start applying for the hunt you want?

The point creep that will be caused by point banking is permanent. The hunters who would have drawn without point banking now have 1 more point

Again dont doubt that unless you have majior points banked that you will have ZERO chance at drawing a tag DURING THE ENTIRE NEXT 5 YEAR STRUCTURE in a 1-8 point unit in Colorado if point banking comes back.

Finally as hunting high country bucks has become the fastest growing "hunt" in colorado and in turn more points will be spent on the early season mule deer hunts or the projected leap in these units and high country tags will jump by 4-6 points in one year..

 

[WBHCO]

If point banking does happen in Colorado the above white paper says it all.

 

[Evan Williams]

I'm against point banking! The above shows why everyone thinks it'll be great but it will kill many opportunities for hunters in CO

 

[Kebler]

I'm jot real familiar with it so who does it the mostly benefit a guy setting on points for 10 or 15 years.

 

[realunlucky]

I believe that point banking is already a done deal. A ton of lobby pressure is being applied. I'm also against it and believe it decreases opportunities

 

[ColoradoV]

I disagree that it will help the guy with 10 or 15 points. Also so you know I hunt on LO vouchers friends give me for free every year so I have points saved and get another one every year while hunting.

Say that you do have 11 points and choose to bank on a current 5 point unit. Well by the CPW projections point leap will happen to that 5 point unit will take at least 7 to draw +1 banking point = 8 to draw what used to be a 5 point unit. That will leave you with 2 and statistically eliminated from any draw tag for the rest of that 5 year cycle.

For deer if you let some guys hunt 2x, 3x, or 4x in a row well that will = there will be hunters who will not hunt 2x, 3x, or 4x in a row and will build points instead of draw the 0 or 1 point unit they have hunted historically. There are so many hunters who do this that in 5 years every single 0-1 point unit will have leaped to take 4points or more..

Again the guys who are screwed are the low point holders as for deer anyway under point banking will be statistically eliminated from any deer draw tag over the next 5 years.

Great plan..

 

[Kebler]

Sounds stupid

 

[robby denning]

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm not quite sure I'm following you.

The data seems to assume that all high or max-point holders will drop their points on lesser hunts. I find guys with lots of points very reluctant to let them go. If many of them still hold on to their points, how will that affect your analysis?

 

[CoHiCntry]

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm not quite sure I'm following you.

The data seems to assume that all high or max-point holders will drop their points on lesser hunts. I find guys with lots of points very reluctant to let them go. If many of them still hold on to their points, how will that affect your analysis?

That's just it... it's all speculation! Nobody knows for sure how many top points holders will dump there points for lesser hunts after waiting all those years to accumulate them. I agree with you that most guy's will be reluctant. It will be interesting to see how many take advantage of point banking. My personal opinion is it's a lot of hype and the affects will be minimal at best.

 

[Kebler]

I'm still new to the game, but would a guy be better off spending less points learn areas and hunt for the sake of hunting, then blow a wad on a what if. How will this affect guys in zero point units that pump money into the economy every year, year after year just wanting to hunt.

 

[realunlucky]

If the effects were so minimal why was it stopped after only one year last time. I will agree top point holders will hold their points hoping someone else will bail. It will be the people in no man land that will utilise the bank options and that will drive probably drive up the low point draws. You are right it is all speculation. When their is more demand than opportunity you will have point creep. You never get away from it until demand and opportunity are equal

 

[Bambistew]

Why speculate? CO did the point banking a while back. Has no one looked at what actually happened the first time?

IMO, if you hunt you shouldn't get a point. The point is your "reward" for letting others hunt in your place.

I think I'll hold on to my points for a few years more.

 

[CoHiCntry]

If the effects were so minimal why was it stopped after only one year last time.

Nothing happened! That's kinda the point. What everyone's saying now is it didn't last long enough last time to see any affects. I have no idea why they only did it for one year last time? It's not because something major happened. I'm sure a few guy's took advantage of it but I don't remember any negative affects on the years following.

 

[Evan Williams]

Being in a shop I talk to quiet a few guys and most of them sitting 10-17 pts. 90% of them have said they PP this year hoping for point banking to ensure a few yrs in a row hunting better lower point units

 

[ColoradoV]

The biggest effect of point banking will be for the folks who have been BANNED FROM BUYING POINTS BY LAW...

Kids who have not gained points will be statistically cut out of the draw for any draw unit over the next 5 years under point banking.I was talking with a friends 13 year old son and he was heart broken when he learned the 1-2 point unit he hoped to draw to hunt mule deer will take 4-5 points under banking. If reinstated he will be 19 or 20 before he will be able to hunt..

I wonder why the CBA (Colorado Bowhunters Association) would support a position that will again statistically eliminate young hunters from hunting deer the next 5 year structure. The CBA essentially attacking youth hunters who have not had the ability to build points due to the law is simply greedy and pathetic.

Let the CPW know and after hearing what the CBA is pushing I will not be renewing as attacking kids is unacceptable in my book.

Any Kid that is 10 now will also be totally screwed at at 14 they will be 4 behind and again if point banking is reinstated will have to wait until until they are 19 or 20 to hunt deer... Wonder how that will play out for new hunter recruitment.

Cutting kids out of the draw is plan and simple greedy by other hunters and chicken shit by the CPW..

 

[robby denning]

When they did point banking in 2006 (I think that was the year), it was wildly unpopular but was only allowed to go one year because of all the panic. If it had been allowed to go a few years, might have been some effect on reducing point creep.

As stated, opportunity cannot meet demand. Seems opinions are formed on this issue between the "haves" and "have-nots".

I have 3 points, so could feel the negative effects if the high point holders jump down on the lesser hunts. However, I also see point creep getting so bad, that I might support point banking IF I really understand it. Can't really say I do and is why I'm on this thread.

 

[sakalmon]

I think their is a lot of speculation until given a chance. I have a bigger problem with the land owner vouchers sold every year. Landowners are draw a certain number of tags depending on the amount of property they own. In certain trophy units these tags can fetch thousands of dollars. These tags are sold to someone with no points that has the money.Then the landowner usually will not even let them hunt their land. Now the guy who had 15 points to draw that unit is competing with a guy with no points. The game stays on the private property but the landowner made easy money. I think the Dow of Co would like to see residents hunt cows, their is more money for them in the out of state tags. Just my thoughts not trying to ruffle a landowners feathers.

 

[Shrek]

The more I learn about guaranteed draw point systems like Colorado's the more I believe they are a bad deal. Point creep sets in and locks most people out forever in high demand units. A kid will never get a chance theoretically. A point system that gives everyone a chance and those with higher points higher chances seem to work possibly. In really high demand draws like for sheep and goats I think a straight draw is the only fair way. I think Idaho has it right myself. No points just a straight draw . I haven't bought a single point anywhere and don't plan on it at this point. General or OTC tags are fine by me because I'm there for the hunt and the meat and big antlers or horns are just a nice bonus. I see all the energy and money being spent for bigger antlers and I see a disease in our sport. Enjoy hunting the biggest and best the area has to offer and judge you success by where it came from.

 

[Coveyleader]

There is nothing wrong with the current system. The problem is you have all these groups crying about my "Kid will never draw 2, 201, etc". Who cares. We're talking about very few units where creep is a problem. There are a ton of units you can hunt every year.

Lets don't forget the CBA polled it's members. The members were in favor of Point Banking, and they made their proposals. So to throw the CBA under the bus is comical. To tell you the truth, there is nothing they can do to satisfy a few loud mouthed members/ex-members. Nothing! Did you see where they were also submitting their views on letting archers hunter further into Sept?

Cry all you want, but for someone who uses the current voucher system, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. Talk about pulling tags from the public without losing points!

 

[orionthehunter1]

+1 the voucher system has stolen more tags from the public and kids and will get worse with the new allocation allotments they passed. I would like to see what point banking does after letting it go for more than a year