Cleaning Rifle Brass?????

[tstowater]

I was visiting with a knowledgeable gentleman on the phone a couple days ago while ordering more "stuff" for reloading. The subject of cleaning rifle brass came up and he said that he does not clean the inside of brass (only the outside) due to accuracy issues. He said that tumblers, ultrasonics, etc. will actually decrease accuracy and he would rather have the carbon on the inside of the case. I did understand that he would clean the outside of the case using other means, but not the inside. Frankly, if I didn't have to run brass through a tumbler, I would be a lot happier. I just would need to come up with a reasonable means of cleaning up the outside of the case.

Any thoughts on this subject?

 

[Shrek]

I'm interested in why he feels cleaning the inside of the case decreases accuracy ? I've never heard that before. I've been cleaning mine in SS tumbling media and the cases are spotless clean. Even the primer pockets are clean so I don't have to clean them in a separate operation anymore.

 

[tstowater]

Shrek, all he said is that some of the benchrest shooters have found that the "dirty" brass was more accurate than the brass that was cleaned on the inside. I can see my loading equipment getting pretty dirty with all the carbon at some point.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I use the SS wet tumbling method as well and I like it. I would be interested to hear what benchrest shooters say as to why they feel better accuracy with dirty brass vs clean brass (on the inside). I would guess that the internal volume of the brass would be more consistent if it was spotless clean vs three shots dirty vs 7 shots dirty??? I would suspect that the case capacity would change slightly with more and more buildup inside the brass thus increasing the pressure?

 

[mtswampfox]

like the results of the wet ss system, for really nasty brass. for everyday load development or brass that looks pretty good to start with the corn cob media works fine for my use. dont care how careful you are those ss rods will escape .

 

[Shrek]

Shrek, all he said is that some of the benchrest shooters have found that the "dirty" brass was more accurate than the brass that was cleaned on the inside. I can see my loading equipment getting pretty dirty with all the carbon at some point.

If it made a big difference I'm sure we all would have heard of it long ago. Maybe some tiny difference is there but I like shiny clean brass and my poor shooting will mask any purported improvement in ultimate accuracy. I'm going to continue to knock the primers out and tumble them spotless before I do anything else to them.

 

[tstowater]

Wish I could come up with a logical reason for why this would work other than the carbon would provide a slicker/smoother surface. Don't know the answer, just asking the question. I'm not a long range shooter, just a volume shooter on prairie dog hunts and tired of cleaning brass for days when we get back. I'm like everyone else, just got in the habit of cleaning it and would like to speed up the process if possible and eliminate a procedure if not deemed necessary. It doesn't seem right, but not everything is as it would appear.....and when you think you have it all figured out....you don't!

 

[Shrek]

Tstowater , you just need a bigger tumbler so you can get it all done in one big load. I agree that cleaning the brass is a chore but if you are shooting that high of a volume your press and loading bench wil be a mess with carbon in no time if you don't clean them. Filth building up in the dies won't do them any good either.

 

[Shrek]

Btw , SS Tumbling media site has a 40lb tumbler that can clean @ 1500 223 rem cases at once. Only about $850 but what's your time and aggravation worth ?

 

[rayporter]

benchrest shooters dont clean brass. that is true.

i have never done more than wipe each case with brasso or krazy cloth or never dull, just before i size the case. [ the never dull is my choice at the moment ]

the reason is because there is so much other stuff to worry about that clean brass is lost in the static. each case will be sized and shot about 10 times in a day. some loads will wreck a case in 10 shots. if you shoot loads that hot you will carry brass that has already been turned to shoot the next day. the brass will be measured and sorted very very carefully and probably turned at least twice.

at the end of the day you got to turn necks again and trim to length and make new brass for tomorrow and clean the rifle and reset the sizer die and check the seating and on and on. and somewhere in there you will search for a 200 yd load for the next morning, which will be 30* colder than the evening is.

so cleaning is just not something that anyone thinks is important. the most the brass will get is a brush inside the necks when it is wiped down. a nylon brush at that.

some clean primer pockets each time and some dont.

 

[tstowater]

Rayporter: thanks for the answer. I'm guessing that you are only neck sizing and not full length sizing. Based on what you said, there is no apparent accuracy loss or there is an accuracy gain by not cleaning the inside of the cases. I was visiting with my FIL last night and one of his concerns has to do with barrel life if he doesn't clean all the debris out of the inside and possible barrel erosion. As we are looking for minute of prairie dog for as long as possible, erosion due to debris is more of an issue to us. Obviously, the big eroders are going to be heat and particular calibers.

 

[rayporter]

nowdays every benchrester full length sizes. if you neck sized you could not shoot the kind of hot loads used without trouble.

i have no way to quantify the debris in a case but my gut feeling is it looks pretty so it makes you feel better. many shooters put on a new barrel in less than 800 rounds. if there was any way to extend that i am quite sure it would be known and tried. i keep a barrel for 1550 or so before i screw a new one on. and i have not tumbled brass for 10 years. a few guys use a sonic cleaner on occasion when they get home.
the guys with thin necks cant tumble or it beats up the necks. if you just use a skim cut and have real think necks you can tumble.

cleaning the barrel every 10 shots is standard and i clean often when shooting dogs, too. this gives me a chance to cool the barrel or lay wet rags on the barrel to help cool it.



research the Houston warehouse shooters. they believed that perfect necks were the key to perfect groups. i have met and talked to two of the Houston shooter and they wont be around much longer to pass on their secrets.

i typed lot more and decided to scrap it. it would just inflame another thread.

 

[Shrek]

Thanks Ray for that bird dog to the Houston shooters. That's some really intriguing information. I don't expect I'll ever shoot well enought to find the differences that tuning brass would make but I feel a little better about my weighing brass and turning. I don't ever see me getting out the 400 grit paper to smooth the cutter marks out though.

 

[Muledeerfanatic]

I've reloaded for right around 22 years. Never owned a tumbler or any kind of brass cleaning device other than a rag. My case prep is trim every once in a while and shoot a lot. I have several guns that shoot 1/2 moa or under.

 

[Sam Millard]

I bought a Frankford Arsensal tumbler from Midway a long time ago, back when they shipped your order for free I'm guessing 17 years ago. It's still all I use. Fresh corn cob media about once a year. It probably averages 5-6000 cases a year, sometimes running for the better part of a day when I'm on a reloading binge.

With brass that's ejected into the dust or mud, or shot through a suppressed gas gun, you are asking for trouble not to clean the outside of it. I suppose it comes down to volume, as to how you clean your brass. I don't buy into the accuracy thing, as far as the inside of the case, but I've seen plenty of scratched dies from dirty brass getting forced up into them.

 

[mtnclimber]

I've reloaded for right around 22 years. Never owned a tumbler or any kind of brass cleaning device other than a rag. My case prep is trim every once in a while and shoot a lot. I have several guns that shoot 1/2 moa or under.

Same here.

 

[KMD]

Hi Todd!
I believe the logic behind not cleaning too much inside the case necks stems from the notion of losing consistency in neck tension. With regard to stainless tumbling, I've researched it some and decided against making the investment. Just seems too labor intensive, and I've read where some shooters don't like how the case necks become " too clean" inside. IE, the stainless media cleans/polishes the brass to such an extent, that the mechanical grip upon the bullet is partially lost, due to the ultra smooth surface.

Another reason I opted to not try stainless wet tumbling is, if left too long, the stainless media will begin to literally peen off the case mouths. Subsequent chamfering & de-burning the case mouths afterward is necessary. Not a big deal. Just another step added to the process. Haven't seen it for myself, just passing along what I dug up...

Anymore, I hit my local pet store years ago and grabbed a 20lb. bag of 'lizard litter'. It's actually just crushed walnut media, but marketed for use as bedding for reptile aquariums. Fill 1/2 the tumbler bowl with it, add a teaspoon of Flitz Polish, dump in brass and let em rip for a couple/3 hours. Brass comes out plenty clean & shiny on the outside for my liking. But, you can still see that the case necks are 'gray' inside from a layer of carbon that remains. That minute amount of carbon allows for a mechanical grip to help the case neck "grab" the bullet. In effect, you can get away with less neck tension from a given bushing, and still hold a bullet in place. Kinda like wrapping a hockey stick with grip tape...

As a matter of course & safety, after tumbling in the walnut stuff, I give the cases a quick tap against each other to make sure all the media drops out from inside. Then, toss em in an old shirt for a quick manual shake to polish any dust off, and done. During their trip around the Case Prep Station, each case gets a quick pass over a nylon neck brush to make double sure there's no obtrusive crap left inside.

Remember, any debris left inside the case will infringe on case capacity and therefore, spike pressure!!! NOT GOOD

Should add, more than a few "old time" reloaders, with whom I hold in the highest regard, never tumble their brass. They have their own ways of cleaning the cases enough to not damage a die, but tumbling in media is not one...

 

[Justin Crossley]

I tumble mine because I like them clean and shiny and I don't want to run dirty brass through my dies. Bench rest shooters treat their brass way different than hunters do and I think that is why you see different methods depending on the intended use.

 

[GKPrice]

Hi Todd!
I believe the logic behind not cleaning too much inside the case necks stems from the notion of losing consistency in neck tension. With regard to stainless tumbling, I've researched it some and decided against making the investment. Just seems too labor intensive, and I've read where some shooters don't like how the case necks become " too clean" inside. IE, the stainless media cleans/polishes the brass to such an extent, that the mechanical grip upon the bullet is partially lost, due to the ultra smooth surface.

Another reason I opted to not try stainless wet tumbling is, if left too long, the stainless media will begin to literally peen off the case mouths. Subsequent chamfering & de-burning the case mouths afterward is necessary. Not a big deal. Just another step added to the process. Haven't seen it for myself, just passing along what I dug up...

Anymore, I hit my local pet store years ago and grabbed a 20lb. bag of 'lizard litter'. It's actually just crushed walnut media, but marketed for use as bedding for reptile aquariums. Fill 1/2 the tumbler bowl with it, add a teaspoon of Flitz Polish, dump in brass and let em rip for a couple/3 hours. Brass comes out plenty clean & shiny on the outside for my liking. But, you can still see that the case necks are 'gray' inside from a layer of carbon that remains. That minute amount of carbon allows for a mechanical grip to help the case neck "grab" the bullet. In effect, you can get away with less neck tension from a given bushing, and still hold a bullet in place. Kinda like wrapping a hockey stick with grip tape...

As a matter of course & safety, after tumbling in the walnut stuff, I give the cases a quick tap against each other to make sure all the media drops out from inside. Then, toss em in an old shirt for a quick manual shake to polish any dust off, and done. During their trip around the Case Prep Station, each case gets a quick pass over a nylon neck brush to make double sure there's no obtrusive crap left inside.

Remember, any debris left inside the case will infringe on case capacity and therefore, spike pressure!!! NOT GOOD

Should add, more than a few "old time" reloaders, with whom I hold in the highest regard, never tumble their brass. They have their own ways of cleaning the cases enough to not damage a die, but tumbling in media is not one...

just to comment on the walnut shell rather than corn cobb, walnut shells have quite a bit of oil in them

 

[Shrek]

Bottom line for me is I like clean brass and nothing gets them clean like ss media. I haven't seen the peening nor have I noticed any loss of grip. In fact the clean brass is kind of sticky so I lube the necks with graphite. I set the timer for two hours and that's been all it takes for spotless brass.