Charting a Future for Montana Mule Deer

[robby denning]

Charting a Future for Montana Mule Deer - Rokslide

Robby hosts Brian Wakeling, Game Management Bureau Chief for Montana FWP. They discuss their developing mule deer plan. Biologists and the public are working to increase mule deer populations, address CWD and improve hunter satisfaction and landowner relations.

www.rokslide.com

 

[BuckRut]

Very interested to give this one a listen to hear what he has to say. Currently I feel like the FWP has to know that moving general season rifle out of the rut is the first big step but is getting told they can't do that.

 

[Marshfly]

Very interested to give this one a listen to hear what he has to say. Currently I feel like the FWP has to know that moving general season rifle out of the rut is the first big step but is getting told they can't do that.

First step is probably zero muley doe tags. Not even those dumb private land only ones.


Going to give this a listen in the next couple of days. Thanks @robby denning

 

[rogerthat]

Very interested to give this one a listen to hear what he has to say. Currently I feel like the FWP has to know that moving general season rifle out of the rut is the first big step but is getting told they can't do that.

That’s not been my lifelong experience with fwp and mule deer management as a Montana resident. Quadruple down on stupid is more likely. I too will give this a listen. I appreciate Robbie doing this one as I know hunting Montana isn’t really his thing with our season structure.

 

[RutandDie]

As a lifelong Montana resident that was a depressing podcast. 30 more years of poor hunting in our future.

 

[mt terry d]

Interesting podcast, hat tip to Mr Denning for having him on.

I think in the future it would be very beneficial to request definitions of
vague or imprecise terms.

Such as the phrase "what the public wants".
Is this the hunting public or the general public? He blurred this important distinction.
What does the majority of the "public" input
have to do with "sound biological science", especially when taking the desires
of the non- and anti-hunting public into consideration ( who we all know have nothing
better to do-and many are paid- than fight hunting in every manner possible?

How has predator management and deer tag numbers changed from the "banner years"?

How many (or what % of) mule deer die yearly from, not with CWD in Montana?
What is the breakdown by age of those that die from CWD?
How exactly are those numbers arrived at?

The claim was made that "we are keeping the spread of CWD from
getting worse"; that what we're doing is having a positive effect.
How much "less worse"? What/where is the control group?
Where is this statement corroborated by scientific CWD study in Montana?
How much of our $$ has been spent to achieve this claimed result
and what does that equal $$/animal saved?

Regarding citing hunter survey data as a scientific approach:
What percentage of license holders do not respond?
What is the success rate of those who do not respond?
How accurate are the responses?
How are the answers to these three questions arrived at ?

 

[Marshfly]

Interesting podcast, hat tip to Mr Denning for having him on.

I think in the future it would be very beneficial to request definitions of
vague or imprecise terms.

Such as the phrase "what the public wants".
Is this the hunting public or the general public? He blurred this important distinction.
What does the majority of the "public" input
have to do with "sound biological science", especially when taking the desires
of the non- and anti-hunting public into consideration ( who we all know have nothing
better to do-and many are paid- than fight hunting in every manner possible?

How has predator management and deer tag numbers changed from the "banner years"?

How many (or what % of) mule deer die yearly from, not with CWD in Montana?
What is the breakdown by age of those that die from CWD?
How exactly are those numbers arrived at?

The claim was made that "we are keeping the spread of CWD from
getting worse"; that what we're doing is having a positive effect.
How much "less worse"? What/where is the control group?
Where is this statement corroborated by scientific CWD study in Montana?
How much of our $$ has been spent to achieve this claimed result
and what does that equal $$/animal saved?

Regarding citing hunter survey data as a scientific approach:
What percentage of license holders do not respond?
What is the success rate of those who do not respond?
How accurate are the responses?
How are the answers to these three questions arrived at ?

Brian's direct number is available at this link. I bet he'd be glad to give you answers to those questions if you call and the data is available.

Fish, Wildlife & Parks, Department of

directory.mt.gov

 

[Marshfly]

Finished the podcast up just a few minutes ago. I was pretty shocked and encouraged at the harvest data for 4pt or better. I was also encouraged that there is a continued large emphasis on opportunity rather than just "big bucks" as some would like. His statement that there is science does not show that hunting during the rut is detrimental to the herd was surprising with all of the rhetoric thrown around.

The conversation and statements from both Brian and Robby regarding the "good old years" being temporary unsustainable highs in the population was enlightening.

Everyone that hunts Montana mule deer would do well to listen to the podcast.

 

[rogerthat]

Brian's direct number is available at this link. I bet he'd be glad to give you answers to those questions if you call and the data is available.

Fish, Wildlife & Parks, Department of

directory.mt.gov

They don’t have any data. There “studies” are a hodge podge of studies from other states or from 20 years ago that support current management. I have read and seen them all and heard this same song and dance since after the big die off in 2011. I think that’s my biggest complaint with MT FWP.

As someone who has hunted eastern montana for my whole life I can tell you unequivocally that hunting mule deer during the rut definitely has an effect on buck age class. There sustained high doe harvest has had an effect on distribution as well. There’s no free lunches in life however much we would like to think.

By the sounds of it definitely some rose colored glasses worn by the agency man regarding hunting during the rut, age classes, and the general state of mule deer in Montana. Buyer beware if you’re looking for a large buck. If you’re looking for a fun time that can definitely be found here and you will see deer and some bucks just so I don’t come off as a curmudgeon but it’s ghastly the difference from my childhood to now in terms of numbers and quality.

 

[Marshfly]

They don’t have any data. There “studies” are a hodge podge of studies from other states or from 20 years ago that support current management. I have read and seen them all and heard this same song and dance since after the big die off in 2011. I think that’s my biggest complaint with MT FWP.

As someone who has hunted eastern montana for my whole life I can tell you unequivocally that hunting mule deer during the rut definitely has an effect on buck age class. There sustained high doe harvest has had an effect on distribution as well. There’s no free lunches in life however much we would like to think.

By the sounds of it definitely some rose colored glasses worn by the agency man regarding hunting during the rut, age classes, and the general state of mule deer in Montana. Buyer beware if you’re looking for a large buck. If you’re looking for a fun time that can definitely be found here and you will see deer and some bucks just so I don’t come off as a curmudgeon but it’s ghastly the difference from my childhood to now in terms of numbers and quality.

With all due respect, anecdotal memories are what they are. And without actual data to back it up, you really have no idea what has an effect on buck age class.

Did you listen to the podcast? In eastern Montana ~50% of bucks taken are 4pt or better and 4.5yrs and older.

I do agree that sustained doe harvest is foolish. We need does to make more deer. Very simple. Past that, I will not make assumptions because I am neither a biologist nor have seen studies that claim causation. I suspect you haven't either. Could be habitat changes. Could be weather/climate. It could be buck harvest during the rut. But without data, the cause is just a guess.

I am in the more opportunity camp which I'm sure comes across. My family of 4 loves to hunt and we eat solely wild game for our red meat. Hunting is a very important part of our family bonding each year and an incredible learning and growing opportunity for my kids. That's important to me. I honestly could care less about chasing big bucks if it means I don't put meat in the freezer and don't watch my kids and wife succeed in killing.

 

[rogerthat]

With all due respect, anecdotal memories are what they are. And without actual data to back it up, you really have no idea what has an effect on buck age class.

Did you listen to the podcast? In eastern Montana ~50% of bucks taken are 4pt or better and 4.5yrs and older.

I do agree that sustained doe harvest is foolish. We need does to make more deer. Very simple. Past that, I will not make assumptions because I am neither a biologist nor have seen studies that claim causation. I suspect you haven't either. Could be habitat changes. Could be weather/climate. It could be buck harvest during the rut. But without data, the cause is just a guess.

I am in the more opportunity camp which I'm sure comes across. My family of 4 loves to hunt and we eat solely wild game for our red meat. Hunting is a very important part of our family bonding each year and an incredible learning and growing opportunity for my kids. That's important to me. I honestly could care less about chasing big bucks if it means I don't put meat in the freezer and don't watch my kids and wife succeed in killing.

I’m intimately familiar with the statistics cited. I have the age testing for region 7 on my desk. I can tell you again unequivocally the hunt doesn’t match the stats. I happen to have lab aged over 100 muleys in region 7 for friends and family over the last 15 years so not all anecdotal. I get sick of getting told off by folks that have minimal to zero experience in an area I’m intimately familiar with so I will see my way out of this conversation. However feel free to come hunt here in eastern Montana and form your own opinion.

Also if you’re hunting for meat….cow elk my friend. You can have that tip for free. Have a good one.

 

[Marshfly]

I’m intimately familiar with the statistics cited. I have the age testing for region 7 on my desk. I can tell you again unequivocally the hunt doesn’t match the stats. I happen to have lab aged over 100 muleys in region 7 for friends and family over the last 15 years so not all anecdotal. I get sick of getting told off by folks that have minimal to zero experience in an area I’m intimately familiar with so I will see my way out of this conversation. However feel free to come hunt here in eastern Montana and form your own opinion.

Also if you’re hunting for meat….cow elk my friend. You can have that tip for free. Have a good one.

Nobody is "telling you off." I apologize if you took it that way. Just trying to have a conversation with facts when your last post had none. This entire topic is meaningless without actual facts. I'm sorry you missed the entire point.

 

[mt terry d]

With all due respect, anecdotal memories are what they are. And without actual data to back it up, you really have no idea what has an effect on buck age class.

Did you listen to the podcast? In eastern Montana ~50% of bucks taken are 4pt or better and 4.5yrs and older.

This entire topic is meaningless without actual facts.
Then Brian's take on CWD is meaningless. Point out any relevant facts I missed.

To discount others' personal experiences as "anecdotal memories" is very condescending.
Is Mr Denning's experience in the field just "anecdotal memories"?
How about Dioni A? Form? Tahr?
Are their experiences not "actual facts"?
I submit they are less likely towards bias than someone whose paycheck
is dependent upon tag sales and "more studies required".

Without required harvest reporting/checking of game
check stations and hunter surveys fall under the category of "anecdotal"

I appreciate the number to talk directly to Brian but that information needs to be made
public by whoever is representing MTFWP during interviews, not some guy
on the internet saying "I talked to so and so of MTFWP and he told me.....".

 

[Marshfly]

This entire topic is meaningless without actual facts.
Then Brian's take on CWD is meaningless. Point out any relevant facts I missed.

To discount others' personal experiences as "anecdotal memories" is very condescending.
Is Mr Denning's experience in the field just "anecdotal memories"?
How about Dioni A? Form? Tahr?
Are their experiences not "actual facts"?
I submit they are less likely towards bias than someone whose paycheck
is dependent upon tag sales and "more studies required".

Without required harvest reporting/checking of game
check stations and hunter surveys fall under the category of "anecdotal"

I appreciate the number to talk directly to Brian but that information needs to be made
public by whoever is representing MTFWP during interviews, not some guy
on the internet saying "I talked to so and so of MTFWP and he told me.....".

The term anecdotal memories is FAR from condescending. Anecdotal memories are by definition limited, easily forgotten, and rarely accurately recorded. It's simply a descriptive phrase that describes a set of data. Nothing more.

I'm sorry you were offended by it but that is simply unwarranted.

Furthermore, while the statement was not directed at you at all so I am confused as to why you are trying to attack me on the internet, you stated zero facts. You only asked questions. And they are valid questions that should be answered.

 

[willfrye027]

With all due respect, anecdotal memories are what they are. And without actual data to back it up, you really have no idea what has an effect on buck age class.

Did you listen to the podcast? In eastern Montana ~50% of bucks taken are 4pt or better and 4.5yrs and older.

I do agree that sustained doe harvest is foolish. We need does to make more deer. Very simple. Past that, I will not make assumptions because I am neither a biologist nor have seen studies that claim causation. I suspect you haven't either. Could be habitat changes. Could be weather/climate. It could be buck harvest during the rut. But without data, the cause is just a guess.

I am in the more opportunity camp which I'm sure comes across. My family of 4 loves to hunt and we eat solely wild game for our red meat. Hunting is a very important part of our family bonding each year and an incredible learning and growing opportunity for my kids. That's important to me. I honestly could care less about chasing big bucks if it means I don't put meat in the freezer and don't watch my kids and wife succeed in killing.

I am totally with you here. I know a lot of us would like to re-create the “good old days”. In reality those are probably peaks in population/herds that we cannot artificially create with changing hunting management. Of course we still need to research, improve habitat, and manage appropriately with respect to buck harvest. But to think we can change a few things here and there to have 180” bucks in every canyon…and still be able to hunt often…it’s just not happening without Mother Nature throwing us a bone in 10-20 year cycles or whatever it works out to be.

On a positive note there is an area in CA that my family has been hunting for the past 60 years or so. The last 5 years, we have had the best hunting objectively over that entire time period. We are definitely at the peak. it’s an otc zone where folks can buy two tags and hunt almost 3 months of the year with no significant management or regulation changes made to the area in decades. Wish I knew what caused this peak (a lot has to do with limited access and less hunting pressure over the years) but overall it’s probably just good conditions to grow a herd.

 

[mrolen]

I enjoyed the conversation and am glad you are having these discussions and sharing them with the public. I’m glad he talked about managing different regions of the state differently that needs to happen. But after spending some time in region 7 I don’t believe his numbers to be correct I spent some time watching deer come through a check stations and I only watched one 4 point get checked. We need mandatory reporting to make any decisions seems like a no brainer.

 

[RutandDie]

I enjoyed the conversation and am glad you are having these discussions and sharing them with the public. I’m glad he talked about managing different regions of the state differently that needs to happen. But after spending some time in region 7 I don’t believe his numbers to be correct I spent some time watching deer come through a check stations and I only watched one 4 point get checked. We need mandatory reporting to make any decisions seems like a no brainer.

Their age data is statistical insignificant and on top of the that it is biased.

 

[mt terry d]

The term anecdotal memories is FAR from condescending. Anecdotal memories are by definition limited, easily forgotten, and rarely accurately recorded. It's simply a descriptive phrase that describes a set of data. Nothing more.

"anecdotal memories are what they are. And without actual data to back it up, you really have no idea"
Of course you have an idea. Depending on the person their idea may likely be much more accurate than the idea of the "experts", who, as has been pointed out, are making assumptions and conclusions based on
very poor or poorly crafted "data".

I'm sorry you were offended by it but that is simply unwarranted.

I'm not offended.

Furthermore, while the statement was not directed at you at all so I am confused as to why you are trying to attack me on the internet,

I'm not attacking you.

you stated zero facts.

I never intended to.

You only asked questions.

I don't claim to have the answers.

And they are valid questions that should be answered.

My point exactly.

 

[BuckRut]

Very disappointing. I don't feel like he brought any valid biological reasoning to this planning process but my 3 biggest red flags were:

1. Why is he so content with the fact that this is going to end up being a 3-4 year process to get completed and implemented?
2. Why did he not come prepared? He admits towards the end that he didn't bring any data with him but was rather shooting from the hip and his memory.
3. He admits that the agency is fully aware of the fact that there is not confidence from the public in their data but essentially says that it's to expensive to get good data and that it's not worth it.

I did appreciate Robby's attempt to call him out on the poor data even though it did go completely over his head. If we truly had 30-40% 4 point or better harvest in the worst parts of the state and 60% covering 2/3 of the state this would be the best mule deer hunting in the west.

 

[MThuntrrr]

Thank you for another great podcast Robby. Without mandatory reporting, this voluntary and biased data is nearly useless. The ability of the biologists to do their jobs effectively will be directly determined by the data they’re able to process. Garbage in = garbage out. I really can’t think of a reason not to have mandatory reporting if we are serious about managing the herds properly. Additionally, query hunters on if bucks were taken on public or private land.

Consider mandatory reporting with:
1) Unit and/or section deer was taken (already required for bears so really shouldn’t be a challenge)
2) 4 point or better
3) Taken on public vs private land

Just last year I killed a mature mule deer buck a 4 hour drive from home in MT. I drove through a required check station and the biologist asked which unit I killed the buck. He then said it was outside of his region and then let me go without obtaining a single piece of data. I then received a phone call this spring inquiring how many days I hunted elk and if I was successful. They weren’t interested in hearing anything about the mule deer buck. Another data point lost. This is a common event in hunting MT for 20 years. Mind blowing