Charging bear/timed shooting drill

[Chris_in_Idaho]

@Formidilosus @ARK_Ginger , I suppose it’s too late to make this a friendly wager? I win if the average time between shots on this site is less than 2 seconds, you win if it’s more?

The best part is that even if I lose it would just mean I’m better at shooting than I thought

I’m talking total time. I understood form to say the average total time would be 3-4 seconds vs you saying 2 or under 2 seconds. Correct me if I’m wrong here.

Form was saying that the average total time would be 3-4 seconds, 1 second to get the first shot off, 2-3 seconds to work the bolt and get another round off. I was saying 3 seconds to work the bolt seemed really slow and “the average time between shots would be less than 2 seconds”, with skilled shooters being “around 1 second”.
I then said that the time between shots for me was around 1.5 seconds with my .243 and a bit slower with my swede. To which Form said the number of guys in America who could have a total time of less than 3 seconds- 1.5 seconds to get the first hit, 1.5 seconds to get the second hit- could fit in the average living room

The living room comment was an exaggeration, however- I stated “hits”. Hitting, working the bolt and hitting again in 1.5 seconds is not normal or common, especially with big bore rifles (375 H&H and larger).

@Formidilosus what exact challenge are you laying down? Is it 1.5 split time or 1.5 total from the beep?

 

[tpicou]

More specifically, with an RDS you simply focus on where you want to shoot. I think we’re saying that same thing, but you don’t focus on the red dot at all.

Also, at 7 yards you don’t need to ever see your rear sights. A bright fiber optic front sight is fabulous for this. See it where you want it and shoot.

Yeah I’ve seen a few dangerous game PHs throw red dots on their rifles instead of using traditional open sights. Definitely seems like the way to go

 

[tpicou]

Here ya go.

Tikka 223 Avg: 1.09/2.57
Rem700 375 H&H Avg: .86/2.92
Pocket 357, only 1 clean run: 1.16/1.82

Biggest lesson so far is don't drop the stock from your shoulder to cycle the bolt. Earned myself a 2.5 second split on one of my 375 attempts.

crushing it!

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus what exact challenge are you laying down? Is it 1.5 split time or 1.5 total from the beep?

There wasn’t a challenge, this was from a discussion on another thread of people vastly overestimating their shooting ability and speed, specifically as it pertains to large caliber bolt actions.

Your times and performance will be at the very top end of hunters.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Here is the thread in question @Chris_in_Idaho some people (me) got lightly roasted for speculating that the average time between shots would be similar to their own times. It was implied by several people that the speed and accuracy I claimed to be able to accomplish were exaggerated (to say the least), and that any total time under 3 seconds (or 1.5 seconds shot-to-shot) was the realm of elite shooters.
It rubbed me the wrong way to be told that I was exaggerating or outright lying about my skill (or that’s how I interpreted some of the comments) , especially when my whole point was that I’m an average shooter at best. Hopefully by now it’s at least clear that I’m not a moron for guessing a sub 2.0 second shot—to-shot average, and that I wasn’t lying or exaggerating when I said I could average 1.5 seconds.

 

[TaperPin]

This thread has me really missing an iron sighted 375 H&H - dies have already arrived and a barrel blank has popped up

For a fun gun, recoil standing or sitting isn’t bad - about like shooting a 12 g. Everyone should have one at some time in their lives.

 

[tpicou]

This thread has me really missing an iron sighted 375 H&H - dies have already arrived and a barrel blank has popped up

For a fun gun, recoil standing or sitting isn’t bad - about like shooting a 12 g. Everyone should have one at some time in their lives.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your blank from?

 

[TaperPin]

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your blank from?

I usually just buy interesting things off of eBay or from friends when they pop up. These are the one’s I know about - seems large calibers are in short supply this year. I’ve avoided buying direct from barrel makers since the wait times drive me nuts.

Accurate shooter always has a good stream of barrel blanks in their classified ads.
Brownells has a stainless Douglas for $329, blued for $200.
Speedy Gonzales has a couple of Bartliens on eBay for $475, but they are really thick with 1:8 twist.
There have been stainless McGowen and I believe stainless Wilson on eBay for $350ish.
I don’t have first hand knowledge, but you might try Shaw.

 

[tpicou]

I usually just buy interesting things off of eBay or from friends when they pop up. These are the one’s I know about - seems large calibers are in short supply this year. I’ve avoided buying direct from barrel makers since the wait times drive me nuts.

Accurate shooter always has a good stream of barrel blanks in their classified ads.
Brownells has a stainless Douglas for $329, blued for $200.
Speedy Gonzales has a couple of Bartliens on eBay for $475, but they are really thick with 1:8 twist.
There have been McGowen and I believe Douglas on eBay for $350ish.
I don’t have first hand knowledge, but you might try Shaw.

Thanks!

 

[Formidilosus]

Here is the thread in question @Chris_in_Idaho some people (me) got lightly roasted for speculating that the average time between shots would be similar to their own times. It was implied by several people that the speed and accuracy I claimed to be able to accomplish were exaggerated

Can you please point out where someone claimed your times were exaggerated, and what exactly were those times with what rifles?

(to say the least), and that any total time under 3 seconds (or 1.5 seconds shot-to-shot) was the realm of elite shooters.

1.5 seconds splits for hits on a relatively small target with a bolt action large caliber rifle is getting quite close to the “realm of elite shooters”.



So it’s very clear, below is what I wrote to start-

it’s about 12-16 rounds of 223 from an AR in the time it takes to shoot 2 rounds of 375 from a bolt action. 1 sec for first shot, then between 2 and 3 seconds to reload and place second shot with bolt action 375 for a total of 3 to 4 seconds; versus 1 second for first shot and .15 splits between shots for 12-16 shots with the AR for that same 3 to 4 seconds.

That is a 2 second split. Then, this is what you responded back with-

Respectfully, I doubt it takes anyone in this forum 3 seconds to work a bolt and place another shot with pie plate accuracy at bear-charge distance. I imagine the average time between shots would be less than 2 seconds, and skilled shooters would be around 1 second.

Skilled shooters with a 375h&h, 1 second between shots (splits) for hits? Yes, that is very much an extremely small proportion of shooters that could remotely approach that speed.

It rubbed me the wrong way to be told that I was exaggerating or outright lying about my skill (or that’s how I interpreted some of the comments) ,
especially when my whole point was that I’m an average shooter at best.

No own said you were lying. I said that believing the average hunter is hitting at 1 sec or even 1.5 second splits but a bolt action 375 magnum is not reality.

Hopefully by now it’s at least clear that I’m not a moron for guessing a sub 2.0 second shot—to-shot average, and that I wasn’t lying or exaggerating when I said I could average 1.5 seconds.

You had separate conversation if you believe I, or any comment I saw called you a lier.




@ARK_Ginger did 5x runs with his 30/06 last “for the best chance of success” had two misses and averaged a 1.47 sec split.


You @Ozarkansas did 4 strings, not 10, with a 243win not a large caliber bolt action, did not use a timer but “average” split was 1.43 sec.


I shot it 10 times with a 308 bolt action, not a large caliber bolt action and my average split was 1.14 seconds.


@id_jon shot it 10 times with his 308 after warming up with multiple other rifles, and averaged 1.26sec splits.


@Carl Ross did it 10 times with his 22BR and averaged 1.37sec splits.

@ARK_Ginger brother shoot with a 308win and was way over 2 second average- way.


@Chris_in_Idaho shot it 4 times with his 375H&H with an average of 2.06 sec splits.

Hopefully by now it’s at least clear that I’m not a moron for guessing a sub 2.0 second shot—to-shot average, and that I wasn’t lying or exaggerating when I said I could average 1.5 seconds.

Right now we have 7-8 people that have shot it at all, only 3 that shot it correctly for ten strings, none of those 3 used a large caliber bolt action- so what exactly do you believe should be clear? Not one person did the drill with a large caliber bolt action- the subject of the other thread, and the only person that shot one at all was over 2 seconds to run the bolt.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

It rubbed me the wrong way to be told that I was exaggerating or outright lying about my skill (or that’s how I interpreted some of the comments) , especially when my whole point was that I’m an average shooter at best. Hopefully by now it’s at least clear that I’m not a moron for guessing a sub 2.0 second shot—to-shot average, and that I wasn’t lying or exaggerating when I said I could average 1.5 seconds.

That certainly wasn't my intent, it's common for me to talk to people who have never timed themselves shoot (mostly drawing from concealed) be overconfident about how quick they are. After my first post you indicated you had a timer, so I didn't doubt you had likely timed it at some point. Obviously it's good to get out there and shoot to get some fresh times as well.

Do you own a magnum? I don't even know anyone well enough that owns one. I suspect I live close enough to you where we could get together and shoot some times, ammo on me.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Can you please point out where someone claimed your times were exaggerated, and what exactly were those times with what rifles?

I said implied, and i think you can see how I would get that from these quotes:

There wasn’t a challenge, this was from a discussion on another thread of people vastly overestimating their shooting ability and speed, specifically as it pertains to large caliber bolt actions.

1 second splits with a bolt action to hit a target at close range?

That tells me you haven’t used a shot timer with people and bolt actions

I have seen a lot of shooters on shot timers. The amount of American hunters/shooters that can make a hit on an 8” target at 7 yards in 1.5 seconds, and then have a 1.5 sec split reloading and hitting again with a bolt action could fit in an average living room- those that can do it with a large bore cartridge could probably fit in a bathroom

I’m not claiming anyone called me a liar, just that I felt as though the veracity of my statement (and therefore integrity) was being questioned

That is a 2 second split. Then, this is what you responded back with

You said 2-3 seconds, I specifically said 3 seemed really slow, and I thought the average on this forum would be less than 2 and skilled shooters would be “around 1 second”. You yourself posted a 1.14 second split, which I’d call “around” 1 second.

You @Ozarkansas did 4 strings, not 10, with a 243win not a large caliber bolt action, did not use a timer but “average” split was 1.43 sec.

I was up front in the other thread about my 1.5 second average being with my .243, and even said I was slightly slower with my 6.5x55 Tikka. I ran the drill as well as I could, with the equipment I had available (mimicking a shot timer as best I could) and using as much ammunition as I was willing to spare. My sample size might be small but 3 of my 4 attempts were within the time range I predicted and the 4th was significantly faster. I felt that was enough to at least show I had based my guesses off my own abilities and wasn’t just blowing smoke.

@ARK_Ginger yeah there’s no hard feelings, I’d be skeptical if I thought someone claimed they could shoot the whole drill in 1.5 seconds as well. I don’t own a magnum bolt gun but I do have a 45/70 with some very hot loads- with a larger aperture sight it seems a lot faster to bring back on target than my .243 despite the recoil, but since it’s a lever gun it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. I also don’t own a shot timer, I’ve just shot with buddies that do. But I’d still be down to meet up and shoot sometime

 

[SaltySailor]

Here is a little 'result' data. My cousin put the stalk on a 7.5 foot grizz up here in AK. Lost it for a few mins in the terrain, it popped up at 50 yards facing him. He threw his gun up to the shoulder and the movement caught the bears eye. Bolt action .300 win, scope on 3 power. The second he found the bear in scope he could see it tense up and face expression change, he made the split second decision to not wait for a charge and pulled the trigger. 180 grain core lokt, bullet entry slightly to the right of snout. Lights out immediately.

 

[rostkowski]

Perhaps conduct the drill a second time but with an elevated heart rate immediately after high physical activity to simulate responding to a charge mid uphill hike, brush busting, etc.

Yes This!

 

[TaperPin]

We could find a furry van for pretty cheap - it would be kind of exciting to come crashing through the brush and chase them a bit before they have to shoot. Lol

Short straw has to drive.

 

[Marbles]

First thing I shot this morning. Have a real shot timer now, set the beep to random. 223 Tikka/SWFA 3-9. No misses. 1.76 second average split. Looks like I'm one of the slow ones. But, the shot timer is fun and a good tool, glad for the push to get one.

 

[Ozarkansas]

No misses. 1.76 second average split. Looks like I'm one of the slow ones

You say you’re slow but that’s a great group!

I need to get one of those enlarged bolt handles for my Tikka that y’all all seem to be rocking on here. I’m slower with it than my savage because the tikka bolt is so small and smooth. I can run the savage without having to grip the bolt at all, but if I try that with my Tikka my hand has a good chance of slipping off

 

[BLJ]

First thing I shot this morning. Have a real shot timer now, set the beep to random. 223 Tikka/SWFA 3-9. No misses. 1.76 second average split. Looks like I'm one of the slow ones. But, the shot timer is fun and a good tool, glad for the push to get one.
View attachment 677826
View attachment 677827

Nice work on no misses.

 

[Marbles]

You say you’re slow but that’s a great group!

I need to get one of those enlarged bolt handles for my Tikka that y’all all seem to be rocking on here. I’m slower with it than my savage because the tikka bolt is so small and smooth. I can run the savage without having to grip the bolt at all, but if I try that with my Tikka my hand has a good chance of slipping off

I have the MDT handle, because it was the cheapest option. From a functional perspective, I have no complaints. It makes an ugly rifle even uglier though, and looks like a toy bolted on.

 

[Marbles]

You say you’re slow but that’s a great group!

I need to get one of those enlarged bolt handles for my Tikka that y’all all seem to be rocking on here. I’m slower with it than my savage because the tikka bolt is so small and smooth. I can run the savage without having to grip the bolt at all, but if I try that with my Tikka my hand has a good chance of slipping off

An update on the MDT handle. So far, as it has always been below freezing when I shoot, I always have gloves on. I noticed that with the MDT handle I tended to grab the bolt to cycle it, even when I tried to use the palm of my hand I would find myself grabbing it with my fingers.

I pulled it off, and immediately saw about a 0.2 second drop in par times for this drill with the bare bolt, still in the cold, still wearing gloves. I have not put the MDT knob back on, and prefer not having it even when shooting slow in the prone.

Edit: Ignore the below. It is not reality with a Tikka, I should have paid more attention to what I'm actually doing. I still prefer no MDT handle though.
Some of this is technique. I have trained specifically not to grab the bolt in the past.
Basically the thumb stays on the rifle stock,
The hand rotates up pivoting on the thumb and catching the bolt handle with the webbing between the thumb and palm,
The bolt handle stays there as the hand pulls it back,
Once the bolt hits the back stop the hand keeps traveling back until the bolt handle is in front of the palm
Then the palm is used to bring the bolt into battery and the downward stroke becomes part of the motion to place the trigger hand back on the stock

@Formidilosus may (with good reason I'm not aware of) call BS on the above. However, it is faster than grabbing the bolt, it relies on midsized muscle groups that maintain function better under duress, and the trigger hand is always physically in contact with the rifle, so at no point is the brain having to track both the rifle and the hands location (which becomes more difficult under stress). It also makes short stroking the bolt very unlikely.

The MDT bolt knob interfered with that, even after using it for 1000 or so rounds.

Edit: There are some inaccuracies in that description when it comes to a Tikka (I picked mine up to double check myself). The bolt handle is too far forward to naturally fall on the webbing, in fact when I pivot my hand up my fingers catch the handle close to the second knuckle of the pointer finger (this is probably why I always want to grab the bolt.

I don't have it to check, but I remember my Kimber being different, which is a good example of how changing platforms can have unexpected effects. I'm also now holding for a neutral thumb, and not wrapping the grip with my thumb, which places my hand further back on the stock.