Car Loans - keeping America poor?

I have a 04 GMC Yukon XL, which I keep in excellent shape inside and out. I recently had it painted, I got a deal from a friend who does it for a living. Had the front seats recovered, the back seat seldom gets used. I figured I can put 5k in it a year if needed, and I would still be money ahead. It only has 125K miles on it. I had a work truck the entire time I work, sorry for the use of the four letter word. I can afford a new truck, but I keep asking myself, WHY?
 
So we can both sleep I went digging in the glove box to confirm. Or fail to in my case. You are right. MSRP $41k.

I guess I self inflated for 2025 rates ;). Sorry.

Funny. I haven’t looked at that in probably 15 years and I swore that’s what We paid. Nope.
@fngTony change this mans handle please. He clearly doesn't appreciate his Tahoe as much as we all initially thought.
 
I do get a kick out of the whole car loans keep people poor - LoL! Spoons make people fat! LoL! If folks would be more responsible and buy within their means, their bank accounts would reflect it. Let the Jones's do their thing and be happy with what you got.

Bought my wife a new car in 2013. Payment wasn't bad, like 1% financing. Paid it off about 6 yrs ago.

Buying a $100k truck is not in our future but maybe $40-$50k is. Gotta balance wants and needs vs costs and what is affordable. Just saw a Toyota dealership with a huge 0% financing on the sign out front. There is an advantage to not being tied into needing a specific, high dollar rig. Time it right and get low interest rate or 0%. Also - we tend to run our vehicles into the ground.

Can also buy a 1 or 2 yr old vehicle for a reduced rate - up to you to determine if the reduced cost and probable higher interest rate is worth not buying new. A $10k price reduction and 3% loan might be okay but a $5k price reduction and 7% interest rate might have you paying more than a new vehicle at 0%. Need to consider stuff like that.

Also, not planning to pay cash for a vehicle - will make payments and spread it out for the 5-7 years. At say $50k, removing that from a 4%-4.5% interest account = an income loss of $2,000-$2,250/yr. Over a 7 yr loan, that's about $15k of income if you reinvest. Sure ya pay taxes on it but still $10k+ in your pocket to offset vehicle costs.

Talking of taxes - lots of states have "personal property taxes" and you get to pay more taxes to "own" an expensive truck rig. Insurance also costs more for more expensive vehicles...
 
If the Joneses only make $15k/month in today's economy, they need to quit spending or get to work. My wife and I currently make roughly that (fluctuates as we run a small seasonal business). There have been periods of a couple years at a time where we made twice that and should have been investing in growth more aggressively. I have never had a new vehicle and we live on an acreage with an old house that was slightly more than $300k in 2020. We mostly take weekend vacations that are cheap to be around to run the business. The business has zero debt and the only personal debt we have is our house at 3.5% for 15 years. Even $30k/month is not really life changing. It moves you 3 meals from starvation instead of one.

There is a certain amount of money that allows you to live a modest life without financial worry. It is way less than people think if you make wise decisions. The amount of money it takes to live a very lavished lifestyle without reintroducing the worry is unfathomable to most people.

In the midwest where things are relatively cheap compared to the coasts (the south is cheaper than here by a lot) I know a couple people that make 7 figures a year. They live pretty lavished lifestyles, but they do not do it without worry. Some of that is poor decision making, but the other part is just that things are truly expensive. My guess is it takes 7 figures a year to comfortably have a new boat, truck, camper, suv, few vacations to the beach a year while paying off main house and vacation homes at beach and ski resort destinations while still investing and saving appropriately. If keeping up with the Joneses is the goal, it seems to me that it takes a hell of a lot to do it. Luckily, most of those things don't contribute much to my happiness.
$30k per month isn’t life changing?

If that’s not a life-changing income for you, you have serious financial issues.
 
Not sure how other states do it but CO registrations definitely hit new vehicles harder. Ownership takes year 1 is 2.15 of MSRP by year 5 its down to 0.45%. So those early years in addition to buying a higher rate of depreciation you also pay a few grand extra in taxes cumulatively.

I never planned to buy a new vehicle and typically bought 3-4yr old vehicles. I needed to replace my 2007 in 2022 and the market was messed up, used trucks were just as expensive as ordering a new (not buying off the lot) and waiting for it. So I bought a new truck for a few percent under invoice and just had to wait for it, payment sucks a bit but I plan to drive this for over a decade (like my prior truck) so I'll be nice on the back end of ownership.

Historically I was of the mindset to have a car fund but the single income / stay at home wife years with kids really strained the cash flow and stagnated those good intentions. I will resume that when this truck is paid off.

Another consideration is that with older paid off vehicles you only need liability insurance. This saves money every month to buy another vehicle when the time comes
Needs to be weighted against the risk/cost of someone T boning your vehicle. You might save $500/year on collision but it takes alot of years with zero issues to offset a moderately valued vehicle being totaled.
To be fair daycare is absolutely insane these days. Some people can’t get a job that offsets that cost+ time away from kids lives.
One thing to weigh in this thought process isn't just the wages at that moment but the compounding factor. It might be a wash to continue working so some folks opt to not work, but that is experience lost in your field, no retirement savings/matching going in, no salary growth compounding during that time. Comparatively someone that leaves the workforce for a while is going to fall behind their peers. Not telling anyone what to do, just highlighting to look at the big picture versus a snapshot in time.
 
If the Joneses only make $15k/month in today's economy, they need to quit spending or get to work. My wife and I currently make roughly that (fluctuates as we run a small seasonal business). There have been periods of a couple years at a time where we made twice that and should have been investing in growth more aggressively. I have never had a new vehicle and we live on an acreage with an old house that was slightly more than $300k in 2020. We mostly take weekend vacations that are cheap to be around to run the business. The business has zero debt and the only personal debt we have is our house at 3.5% for 15 years. Even $30k/month is not really life changing. It moves you 3 meals from starvation instead of one.

There is a certain amount of money that allows you to live a modest life without financial worry. It is way less than people think if you make wise decisions. The amount of money it takes to live a very lavished lifestyle without reintroducing the worry is unfathomable to most people.

In the midwest where things are relatively cheap compared to the coasts (the south is cheaper than here by a lot) I know a couple people that make 7 figures a year. They live pretty lavished lifestyles, but they do not do it without worry. Some of that is poor decision making, but the other part is just that things are truly expensive. My guess is it takes 7 figures a year to comfortably have a new boat, truck, camper, suv, few vacations to the beach a year while paying off main house and vacation homes at beach and ski resort destinations while still investing and saving appropriately. If keeping up with the Joneses is the goal, it seems to me that it takes a hell of a lot to do it. Luckily, most of those things don't contribute much to my happiness.

If you and your wife bring in 15K a month you are in a tax bracket a majority of American households will never see. The average combined income is between 6-7K per month.

I do agree with where you live being a factor on whether you have disposable income or not. 15K a month in South Dakota is certainly different than 15K a month living in California.

To say you must make millions of dollars a year to buy a new boat, truck, camper, and go on vacations is silly IMO. Now, we are talking a 60K boat, 25K camper etc. Not a yacht or American coach motorhome.
 
$30k per month isn’t life changing?

If that’s not a life-changing income for you, you have a serious financial issues.
I get what he was intending. Yes that level of money should let you fund your 401ks and still have money to live comfortably but not "lavish". That level of money does not afford a BIG house, new cars, new boat, new RV, multiple vacations, etc. His point was the level of "keeping with the jones's" takes alot of cashflow. Alot more than 30k/mo.
 
I dont think most who "buy cash" mean actual cash. For me it used to be cashiers check though dealerships dont seem to have an issue taking personal checks these days, they can verify it on the spot.
I understand that just fine. That was part of my point.

Personal checks are pretty insecure and leave this hard record of your account number and personal information laying around for someone to target you for check, wire, or identity fraud. I occasionally use checks as a last resort.

Of course a cashier check or bank wire are probably better cash-like options. But may require some planning up-front to have a cashier check in hand, or make phone calls to authorize a bank wire.

This thread is about car loans being bad for Americans and car prices. My perspective was that credit is the most straightforward way to do a cash-like purchase. One can do a 6-month short-term installment instead of lump sum cash transaction with very little interest penalty. This was my main point. There is a responsible way to use credit.

The vast majority of people buying a car don't think about the loan/debt this way. Instead they try to optimize their monthly payment to be low and take on a long term debt and then eat all the interest that comes along with keeping that loan.

I'm not telling anyone what to do. This is how I bought my last truck, new, in about 6 months with cash I had saved with loan installments of around $6000. The total interest I paid was only a marginal $300. I would be curious what tangible benefit, if any, such as a cash discount are most dealerships offering?

Most of the cars I had bought over my life up to that point were used, with the most up to that point having been $12,000 sticker price. It's a different lower stakes activity to buy a used car with cash than do a lump sum vehicle purchase on a new car for $30-50K. I think it's unnecessarily risky and makes an enticing target for fraud or harassment. That is just my opinion.

Back to the main point. I don't think it's the auto loan by itself inflating the costs. Most people aren't using credit wisely and are taking out long term loans to optimize for the wrong thing, a lower monthly payment. Maybe there is something else going on like easy access to debt like with NINJA loans and housing market. But also our government is just printing infinite money and laundering it through NGOs and foreign aid. That might be a factor. There are probably multiple reasons for high auto prices. If we all could just switch to cash, I don't think it would move the price of autos meaningfully.
 
Tax's? on your $35000 return? $35000 profit from a $40000 investment? in 5 years? I want that deal for sure.
The investment was just looking at SPY (one of the more common S&P index funds) Right now its at $542.40 5 years ago right now it was $282.59 542.40/282.59 is principle x 1.9194 $40k x 1.9194 = $76,775 or a nearly $37k profit in 5 years.

Yes I suppose to net it out if you were cashing out that investment you would take off capital gains.
 
That level of money does not afford a BIG house, new cars, new boat, new RV, multiple vacations, etc.
How does $30k a month not pay cash for two new cars, new boat, new RV and multiple vacations?

Two cars at $50k=$100k
Boat $50k?
RV $50k?
Five vacations $5k each=$25k
Total $225k, leaving $135k to pay for housing and other expenses. In what universe can a family not pay their bills, save for retirement and have beer money left over at $30k a month take home?
 
How does $30k a month not pay cash for two new cars, new boat, new RV and multiple vacations?

Two cars at $50k=$100k
Boat $50k?
RV $50k?
Five vacations $5k each=$25k
Total $225k, leaving $135k to pay for housing and other expenses. In what universe can a family not pay their bills, save for retirement and have beer money left over at $30k a month take home?
Your post tax income is more like $252,000 to $275,000

$1,000,000 home with $800,000 mortgage is $63,868.92 in payments annually before taxes and insurance. Probably a modest home for a $360,000/yr income
 
I get what he was intending. Yes that level of money should let you fund your 401ks and still have money to live comfortably but not "lavish". That level of money does not afford a BIG house, new cars, new boat, new RV, multiple vacations, etc. His point was the level of "keeping with the jones's" takes alot of cashflow. Alot more than 30k/mo.
Yup. All the families making $15-20k/month are trying to keep up with that one couple that makes 50k-80k/month and they don't realize how big that gap is. I've seen it a ton of times.
 
I understand that just fine. That was part of my point.

Personal checks are pretty insecure and leave this hard record of your account number and personal information laying around for someone to target you for check, wire, or identity fraud. I occasionally use checks as a last resort.

Of course a cashier check or bank wire are probably better cash-like options. But may require some planning up-front to have a cashier check in hand, or make phone calls to authorize a bank wire.

This thread is about car loans being bad for Americans and car prices. My perspective was that credit is the most straightforward way to do a cash-like purchase. One can do a 6-month short-term installment instead of lump sum cash transaction with very little interest penalty. This was my main point. There is a responsible way to use credit.

The vast majority of people buying a car don't think about the loan/debt this way. Instead they try to optimize their monthly payment to be low and take on a long term debt and then eat all the interest that comes along with keeping that loan.

I'm not telling anyone what to do. This is how I bought my last truck, new, in about 6 months with cash I had saved with loan installments of around $6000. The total interest I paid was only a marginal $300. I would be curious what tangible benefit, if any, such as a cash discount are most dealerships offering?

Most of the cars I had bought over my life up to that point were used, with the most up to that point having been $12,000 sticker price. It's a different lower stakes activity to buy a used car with cash than do a lump sum vehicle purchase on a new car for $30-50K. I think it's unnecessarily risky and makes an enticing target for fraud or harassment. That is just my opinion.

Back to the main point. I don't think it's the auto loan by itself inflating the costs. Most people aren't using credit wisely and are taking out long term loans to optimize for the wrong thing, a lower monthly payment. Maybe there is something else going on like easy access to debt like with NINJA loans and housing market. But also our government is just printing infinite money and laundering it through NGOs and foreign aid. That might be a factor. There are probably multiple reasons for high auto prices. If we all could just switch to cash, I don't think it would move the price of autos meaningfully.

Yea I am with you on that. I am generally not selling stock and initiating a brokerage transfer a week before going car shopping. I do typically have a $10-20k float in checking but finance the rest out of convenience and then pay off fairly shortly either just with large monthly payments or in lump sum at bonus time.
 
People throw out gross income like it's a thing. In my simple mind it doesn't matter if I make a million a day if I only take home $250.
Right thats why i quoted you as you stated gross income rather than taxed income for your example.
 
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