Can holdover be more accurate than dialing in a hunting scope?

[JF_Idaho]

MOA is angular and is roughly 3" at 300. So 0.4 x 3 = 1.2" or so, which is about the size of the group on that target.

I might have exaggerated slightly. And should have put inch vs moa. My bad.

Center to center its under 3/4" (assuming the big squares are 1"). 300 yards moa would be 3.141 inches.

So worst case .25 moa. Still pretty dang impressive.

 

[mtwarden]

Which model Leupold exactly? And which reticle? Thanks.

It’s the 2-7x33 Firedot, 30 mm tube and BDC reticle- looks like it’s not made anymore

https://www.opticsplanet.com/leupold-riflescope-vx-r-2-7x33mm-matte.html

 

[Wrongside]

I am North of the border and SWFA is not an option.

This simply isn’t the case at all. When SWFA actually had stock, we brought many of them up. Thru the proper channels. It takes a little more time and money, but can be done.

Also, Trij, NF, Bushy Elite Tac, Burris XTR- and probably a few others I’m forgetting- are readily available north of the 49th.

It will never offer more precision.

This. I’ve taken game with only holding and dialing. Holds will only be an advantage in a very select few situations. Most of the time a disadvantage, in that it lowers precision/accuracy. And the speed benefits are overblown.

 

[Ron.C]

Im also a short range shooter (400 yards) and shoot a 7mm-08/leupold cds for everything I hunt in BC. I've done both and have had hits while holding over that where not ideal. For me, I much prefer to set the crosshairs where I want the bullet to impact and in doing so I feel the margin for error is much less.

I don't find it takes any time at all to range which I already did when using the hold over /aim high method (assume most past 200 yards) and adjust my CDS turret for the correct range. Never felt like I had to rush doing either.

Can a hunter have a mechanical failure with scope zero (or apply the wrong setting),Yes.

Can a hunter misjudge my holdover, yes.

At the end of the day, Holdover/bdc/adjustable turret is really a personal choice. Some guys are happy to be able to hit an 8" circle in the vitals others want to split hairs.

You are the one pulling the trigger so use the method that are most comfortable with.

 

[justin davis]

Not gonna be more accurate. Faster yes but accuracy wise negative

 

[BPAZ223]

I’m into it! With consideration to my OP please suggest combo.

A scope with a floating center dot and a christmas tree that you can dial or hold is ideal. If you don't have a lot of money a cheap BDC scope would be my pick. Most cheap dialing scopes apart from the SWFA do not have accurate adjustments or do weird things when you dial them, or the knobs are junk and turn too easily.

The big thing is to practice. If you can set up some 10" steel targets out to 500 you will get a very good idea of how far you can shoot before the wind or temperate affect it.

 

[5MilesBack]

You have completely missed the point of the post. 100% agree that a scope that tracks repeatedly and predictably/ holds zero is more accurate than holding. But those scopes are few and far between and not practical for the average + hunter.

You do what you gotta do, and either upgrade or make do with what you have. Know your equipment and your own limitations and stay within those limits. Or do what you have to do to change those limit boundaries.

 

[texag10]

I really want to see this put on a timer with hits tracked (ie not just did you hit steel), in field conditions. I'm trying to think of a way to do this myself, but I don't see myself getting out to a place I haven't been before that has enough room for this anytime soon.

@TaperPin @Formidilosus what would y'all want this to look like? My initial thoughts are USPSA target turned horizontal to be more in line with the body shape of a deer and catch deviation from wind drift better, set up in actual hunting type terrain (not on a range with a giant berm on each side to control wind). Maybe 3x shots each at ~250yds from standing, pack on, rifle carried how you would in the field for time, and again at 450-550yds from a glassing position for time.

Draw an 8" circle with sharpie on the front half of the target, place a high contrast aiming point in the center of the circle, and only hits in this zone count?

 

[BPAZ223]

I really want to see this put on a timer with hits tracked (ie not just did you hit steel), in field conditions.

There's actual competitions where that happens on steel targets or silhouettes and holding is faster than dialing. Three gun guys for example. Or do one of those rifle clinics where one guy has a semi and spots the guy with the bolt action rifle. You'll see the guy with the bolt gun spotting for the AR15 guy out to 600 or 700 to save time for the longer stages where it's harder to get on target and wind is a much bigger deal. Of course there are other things like skill and buying points.

 

[texag10]

There's actual competitions where that happens on steel targets or silhouettes and holding is faster than dialing. Three gun guys for example. Or do one of those rifle clinics where one guy has a semi and spots the guy with the bolt action rifle. You'll see the guy with the bolt gun spotting for the AR15 guy out to 600 or 700 to save time for the longer stages where it's harder to get on target and wind is a much bigger deal. Of course there are other things like skill and buying points.

Honest question, are 3 gun matches analogous enough to hunting that we can draw any conclusions from them? Won't competitors know the distance ahead of time, and have to engage multiple targets at a variety of distances with rifles that essentially do not move in recoil?

 

[JohnJohnson]

There's actual competitions where that happens on steel targets or silhouettes and holding is faster than dialing.

I can't speak to three gun but there are holdover-only stages in PRS style matches and universally they are some of the lowest scoring stages (in terms of targets hit) in that style of competition.

 

[BPAZ223]

I can't speak to three gun but there are holdover-only stages in PRS style matches and universally they are some of the lowest scoring stages (in terms of targets hit) in that style of competition.

It depends on the rules and the stage. Switching between targets you might dial the first and hold the second. Other times you aren't allowed to touch the scope at all and are on a timer. Or if its known distance and not on a timer. If someone is spotting you or calling corrections. If you are shooting a gasser or a bolt.

 

[Formidilosus]

There's actual competitions where that happens on steel targets or silhouettes and holding is faster than dialing. Three gun guys for example.

I’ve shot a lot of 3 gun. First, the rifles are 223 gas guns with 30-60 round mags and almost never does anyone (even the winner) go one for one on targets past 300 yards.

2nd, the targets are generally huge past 300 yards- b/c zone at the smallest and usually IPSC steel- matches/stages that use 8-12” targets and have lots of them past 300 yards are dominated by shooters that dial elevation.

3rd, 3 gun stages at distance have multiple targets at multiple, widely varying distances. When you miss- the steel doesn’t move. There’s no correlation to big game hunting for that.

Or do one of those rifle clinics where one guy has a semi and spots the guy with the bolt action rifle. You'll see the guy with the bolt gun spotting for the AR15 guy out to 600 or 700 to save time for the longer stages where it's harder to get on target and wind is a much bigger deal.

? Not sure what slotting has to do with holding elevation or dialing elevation, but in team matches- the winners are dialing elevation for anything that isn’t a massive target.

 

[Formidilosus]

I really want to see this put on a timer with hits tracked (ie not just did you hit steel), in field conditions. I'm trying to think of a way to do this myself, but I don't see myself getting out to a place I haven't been before that has enough room for this anytime soon.

@TaperPin @Formidilosus what would y'all want this to look like?

It’s been done in depth. If you want to hit 8-12” targets past 300’ish yards- dial elevation, hold wind. It is faster to hit dialing elevation and holding wind, then holding for both. It only gets worse under stress, heavy breathing, high heart rate, unsteady positions, or moving animals.

You adjust the turret while you get into position- it adds no time. If you have to go past the first revolution, then it adds 1.5-2 seconds- that’s less time then the 2-4 four times the eye moves to confirm the hold is correct when aiming over, or holding between stadia marks.

 

[TaperPin]

300 yard zero? I'd love to see that "zero target".

It’s only 300 yards. Lol

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

It’s only 300 yards. Lol

Yes. And with a 10mph full value crosswind the bullet is going to drift .5 mils (at 100yds its .1). I don't want to wait for a calm day to verify my zero, nor do I have an enclosed tunnel to shoot in.

300yds on a flat range isn't an extreme distance, but it's also far enough that external factors are introduced, unnecessarily.

 

[TaperPin]

I really want to see this put on a timer with hits tracked (ie not just did you hit steel), in field conditions. I'm trying to think of a way to do this myself, but I don't see myself getting out to a place I haven't been before that has enough room for this anytime soon.

@TaperPin @Formidilosus what would y'all want this to look like? My initial thoughts are USPSA target turned horizontal to be more in line with the body shape of a deer and catch deviation from wind drift better, set up in actual hunting type terrain (not on a range with a giant berm on each side to control wind). Maybe 3x shots each at ~250yds from standing, pack on, rifle carried how you would in the field for time, and again at 450-550yds from a glassing position for time.

Draw an 8" circle with sharpie on the front half of the target, place a high contrast aiming point in the center of the circle, and only hits in this zone count?

If I’m taking someone out getting ready for mule deer and they want to see the shots, a 20” cardboard box the same height as the chest to back of a deer works well and is easy to carry. If they can’t reliably hit a box that big, they are trying to shoot way too far. If someone can’t see the cardboard I offer to paint it mule deer gray. As a practical matter, if a 9-1/4” paper plate can‘t be hit under low stress conditions, I tend to think it’s too far to attempt hunting.

 

[Article 4]

No it isn’t. I’m not into coddling incorrect beliefs born of ignorance or incompetence.




Show me a modern scope that won’t dial correctly, but that stays zeroed?




Ok.



Yes. Until you add in between ticks, wind, stress, and time. Then misses and longer times to first shot happen.



To 400 yards it’s ok holding in no wind, with wind any more than 1 mil or so of hold (300 yards) and issue scome up. The Swaro is fragile and doesn’t hold zero. The Credo is ok, but why are you limiting it to those options? The Credo can dial.





I would get a Credo or Accupoint, check “tracking” and then dial.




At 300- maybe. In general it is not faster to hit when you add in time, stress, wind, moving animals, etc.




Well since I don’t live in a binary world- I will take one that holds zero and dials.

@Formidilosus and I often take different sides of the story however in the case, we are completely aligned.

If all you are going to shoot is 300 yards with a modern caliber pushing high BC bullets around the 3000 fps mark, then hold over can work. Most calibers have anywhere from a 9-12 inch drop from 100 to 300 +/- depending on caliber.

IME and IMO - a properly zero'd rifle (zero at 100 yards to ensure you have the tightest group and no variability is added by zeroing at longer distances) with a well made turret based scope, a person will always have a more reliable and repeatable ability to hit targets at 300 and longer distances by dialing.

 

[texag10]

It’s been done in depth. If you want to hit 8-12” targets past 300’ish yards- dial elevation, hold wind. It is faster to hit dialing elevation and holding wind, then holding for both. It only gets worse under stress, heavy breathing, high heart rate, unsteady positions, or moving animals.

You adjust the turret while you get into position- it adds no time. If you have to go past the first revolution, then it adds 1.5-2 seconds- that’s less time then the 2-4 four times the eye moves to confirm the hold is correct when aiming over, or holding between stadia marks.

I expected nothing less. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

If I’m taking someone out getting ready for mule deer and they want to see the shots, a 20” cardboard box the same height as the chest to back of a deer works well and is easy to carry. If they can’t reliably hit a box that big, they are trying to shoot way too far. If someone can’t see the cardboard I offer to paint it mule deer gray. As a practical matter, if a 9-1/4” paper plate can‘t be hit under low stress conditions, I tend to think it’s too far to attempt hunting.

Ok, so I want to go test this in a few weeks, weather permitting. I've got a 6.5-284 shooting berger 156gr elite hunters (G1 BC .679, G7 BC .347) at 2850fps, a SWFA 3-9x42 in mils, and will be shooting at roughly 7800ft ASL in rolling, sage country type terrain. Available rests/shooting aids will be my pack, trekking poles, a lightweight glassing tripod, and a lightweight rear bag or my bino harness for a rear rest. I do not know if prone will be an option prior to going to the location.

If you were mentoring me, what would you tell me to use as my zero distance, and how would you have me account for drop and wind drift shooting a mule deer at say ~300 yds and ~450 yds? I would like to test this against dialing elevation and holding wind at the same distances with the same rifle for both time and first round hits.

 

[TaperPin]

Yes. And with a 10mph full value crosswind the bullet is going to drift .5 mils (at 100yds its .1). I don't want to wait for a calm day to verify my zero, nor do I have an enclosed tunnel to shoot in.

300yds on a flat range isn't an extreme distance, but it's also far enough that external factors are introduced, unnecessarily.

The advice I was given is to not feel at the mercy of wind - adjust for it at every shot at every distance, but to stop avoiding the range on windy days, and to avoid believing an accurate group can‘t be shot at the range. If a shooter can’t adjust for wind well enough under no stress, unlimited time, wind flags, wind deflection chart to refer to, kestrel, and perfect rest, then effective range is quite short when all those are taken away.