Blackhorn 209 hang fires

[Idaholewis]

Used the cci 209 magnums today but just kinda pushed the bullet till it stoped didn’t try and cram it in very hard they are Thor bullets about 15# of pressure to push down the barrel I’m wondering if it is the breech plug that won’t light it right


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Another thing you wanna be DARN Careful of here, Make sure you Re Seat the Bullet on a Fail to Fire, a 209 Primer Can REALLY push a Bullet up the Bore!! If it’s a loose Bullet like my Target/Bench Bullets a 209 can Literally Spit them Out 15 Yards or so (I seen it FIRST HAND out of my Brand New Knight Mountaineer) If you forget to Re Seat the Bullet After a Fail To Fire from a 209 and The Bullet has indeed Slid up the Bore, You will VERY likely Ring (RUIN) your Barrel

 

[Idaholewis]

They're all dirty to some extent or another and some worse than others. If the rifle is shoot T7 well, then stick with it. T7 is the least dirty compared to Pyrodex.
I will recommend some help with cleaning/swabbing with T7. I have found nothing better than Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine. I used it exclusively with my Ultimate BP Xpress with HEAVY charges of T7. I could clean the barrel with 5 patches, send a lubed patch down the bore and it was done.
Swabbing should be done with...…. EVER SO SLIGHTLY …. DAMP patches and not wet patches of Butch's. Run a patch down the bore, up and down a couple times, turn it over and repeat.

Now for the cleanliness of BH...…… IMO only...… I don't care if I scrub my barrel clean of every microscopic bit of lubricant, run I don't care how many patches of alcohol down it, or any other product or procedure before shooting. It takes me 3 times the patches to clean the bore vs T7. Its also a PITA to clean a brake, or at least it was until I found the answer for that.

I bet a Steam Cleaner, or an Ultra Sonic Parts cleaner would Take care of Cleaning that Muzzle Brake I’m curious of your Method?

I have a Brand new Bottle of Butch’s Blackpowder Bore Shine, I Don’t think I’ve ever used it? I’ve heard a LOT of positive stuff about it

 

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I bet a Steam Cleaner, or an Ultra Sonic Parts cleaner would Take care of Cleaning that Muzzle Brake I’m curious of your Method?

I have a Brand new Bottle of Butch’s Blackpowder Bore Shine, I Don’t think I’ve ever used it? I’ve heard a LOT of positive stuff about it

Believe it or not, I didn't at first...…….. WINDEX w/Ammonia D.

Spray it on the brake and just watch the gunk run off. Spray it maybe twice again, to get the remainder off it and then dry and lubricate. DONE! LOL Levi (LR Customs), the designer and builder of the T-Rex CSTM brake taught me that. My first time cleaning it after shooting BH about made want to hire it done, so I called Levi. He giggled and sent me a video of how easy it works.

Butch's has been around for a long time and it doesn't stink. Try it next time, you may like it.

 

[Dualsight]

I've been using Blackhorn 209 for years....since they first came out. I'm shooting a 50 cal. T/C Encore with a Bergara barrel.

This has been my (good) experience with BH 209:

• Very consistent shot to shot. Best group was a 5-shot, 1/2-inch group at a 100 yards. Could/should have been tighter; I adjusted the last shot two clicks down on the scope....just to see.
• Can shoot 20+ shoots in a row without cleaning the bore.
• Last shot in a 20+ in-a-row string is easier to load than the first shot.
• Shot group stays the same or tightens slightly without cleaning.
• Cleans easily with regular bore solvent (like Hoppe's No. 9). Regular bore solvent is what is recommended and not methods/cleaners used with black powder, Pyrodex, T7, etc.

Problems found (the bad):

• Western Powders says it has a great shelf life if kept in a cool/dry location. This has not been my experience.
• Low velocities when kept in pre-measured containers for an extended period of time (more than two years).
• Inconsistent groups when kept in pre-measured containers/tubes for an extended period of time (one year +/-).
• Velocity decreases when powder sits on the shelf too long regardless of location in regular container.
• Shot inconsistency when powder sits on the shelf too long regardless of location in regular container.

Disclaimer: Your experience may differ. Still, I like it a lot, and have found nothing better.

 

[Idaholewis]

I've been using Blackhorn 209 for years....since they first came out. I'm shooting a 50 cal. T/C Encore with a Bergara barrel.

This has been my (good) experience with BH 209:

• Very consistent shot to shot. Best group was a 5-shot, 1/2-inch group at a 100 yards. Could/should have been tighter; I adjusted the last shot two clicks down on the scope....just to see.
• Can shoot 20+ shoots in a row without cleaning the bore.
• Last shot in a 20+ in-a-row string is easier to load than the first shot.
• Shot group stays the same or tightens slightly without cleaning.
• Cleans easily with regular bore solvent (like Hoppe's No. 9). Regular bore solvent is what is recommended and not methods/cleaners used with black powder, Pyrodex, T7, etc.

Problems found (the bad):

• Western Powders says it has a great shelf life if kept in a cool/dry location. This has not been my experience.
• Low velocities when kept in pre-measured containers for an extended period of time (more than two years).
• Inconsistent groups when kept in pre-measured containers/tubes for an extended period of time (one year +/-).
• Velocity decreases when powder sits on the shelf too long regardless of location in regular container.
• Shot inconsistency when powder sits on the shelf too long regardless of location in regular container.

Disclaimer: Your experience may differ. Still, I like it a lot, and have found nothing better.

I would bet that this can of mine is Old, Probably Dropped off when Lewis & Clark Came Through? I got this at our North 40 Sporting Goods Store, They couldn’t hardly give this BH209 powder away around here, they were Closing it out a few years ago throughout all of their Stores, i paid 19, or 20 Bucks for this Can on that Close out deal.

Can you date it from the Lot #? This is my Can

 

[sabotloader]

I would bet that this can of mine is Old, I got this at our North 40 Sporting Goods Store, They couldn’t hardly give this BH209 powder away around here, they were Closing it out a few years ago throughout all of their Stores, i paid 19, or 20 Bucks for this Can on that Close out deal.

Can you date it from the Lot #? This is my Can

BH is a great powder for ML shooters but there is a learning curve that goes long with it. As for your lot of BH - probably #18, I just looked at my current bottle and it is #8. It shoot just fine. BH really doesn't age like regular BP's. You need to know that that using BH in your form of shooting can be problematic when shooting flat based lead conicals without a gas seal. Shooting a sabotless bullet with a powder cup usually works great.

Since BH is really a smokeless powder it requires heat and pressure to maintain combustion. The paper patch bullets you are using will be a problem since they go down the bore with a minimum amount of pressure - this lack of pressure allows the bullet to slide up the bore with very little resistance - without resistance the bullet even though it is soft lead will not obturate to the bore allowing gas to bypass. Even though you are using a felt wad under the bullet, this style of wad with not help as gas goes right through the felt wad. Pressure can not be maintained so the powder fails to fully ignite if it even tries to ignite. As you know I use a 'veggie wad/shot card and have shot a few Bull Shops with BH. BUT - the bullet loads much tighter than your paper patch bullets which make a real big difference.

The only reason I do not shoot it more is because of the cost of the powder and can get the same results with T7 which is much less expensive.

 

[Idaholewis]

Excellent post Mike, i fully agree!

BH209 will NEVER work for my Style of Target Shooting, Not just my Paper Patch, That would be ALL of my Bullets that i plan to Target shoot, as they are Sized .001 under Bore (I was taught this By WORLD Champion Shooters) And as everyone knows, i use and Swear by Wool Felt Wads, I use them pretty much Exclusively with Every Type of Bullet i shoot, From Lead, Jacketed, to Paper Patch.

It amazes me that Western Powders makes a Claim on their Website that Loose Fitting Bullets are Not Accurate??? Are you Joking me??? I have 2 Videos less than a Week apart of Me Shooting 600 Yards with 2 Different Rifles, Both with “Slip Fit” Bullets, Yet they aren’t accurate according to Western Powders??? UNREAL that they would make such a RIDICULOUS Claim! They Should Contact Lee Shaver’s, and Dave Gullo (Both have Won WORLD Championships, and NUMEROUS other Wins Across the World) And tell them that they have been Loading their Bullets Wrong all of their Careers Quite a Company, to make such an unreal STUPID Claim

 

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.............................It amazes me that Western Powders makes a Claim on their Website that Loose Fitting Bullets are Not Accurate??? Are you Joking me??? I have 2 Videos less than a Week apart of Me Shooting 600 Yards with 2 Different Rifles, Both with “Slip Fit” Bullets, Yet they aren’t accurate according to Western Powders??? UNREAL that they would make such a RIDICULOUS Claim! …………...

I've read through the BH site many times over the years and must have missed those comments made by Western.
Mind sharing the link to that information from Western's website?

 

[Idaholewis]

I've read through the BH site many times over the years and must have missed those comments made by Western.
Mind sharing the link to that information from Western's website?

We just went through this George, Thread titled “Looking For Guidance”

Below is copied and pasted DIRECTLY from Western Powders Site

A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.
Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.
We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition.

 

[Idaholewis]

Points taken from Above



Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.

Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.

We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition.

 

[sabotloader]

We just went through this George, Thread titled “Looking For Guidance”

Below is copied and pasted DIRECTLY from Western Powders Site

A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.
Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.
We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition.

See I read through that write up and really think it is direct and accurate.

Which part are you not in agreement with?

 

[Idaholewis]

See I read through that write up and really think it is direct and accurate.

Which part are you not in agreement with?

After trying their powder and it Failing for my application, I ABSOLUTELY agree with them above.

But What i DON’T agree with is where they Say Poor Accuracy from a loose fitting Bullet.

ALL of my Target Bullets are loose, Most slide down my Bores with ZERO help, when they get to the powder I give a light, Consistent push. Does it look like i have an issue with accuracy? I have a YouTube Channel FULL of Videos showing how well it works, most recently at 600 Yards

Am I somehow reading what they are saying Wrong?

 

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Sabotloader's post is correct, but its related to BH209 and not blackpowder. We've known for over a decade that tight, or tighter fitting sabot/bullet combinations shot much better than loose fitting powerjunk bullets.

Not speaking for Western, but maybe their comments were related more towards powerjunk with BH209 and completely leaving out loading practices for blackpowder? There's a huge difference between BH and BP, and BP will ignite with the tiniest of spark, actually even static, where BH will not and needs the pressure. You can not expect BH to work identical to BP, it just isn't going to happen.

BH just flat out works perfectly when used in firearms designated for its use, and if Western's recommendations are followed. 10's of thousands of shooters use it and its popularity is growing. The major complaint seems to be its cost, and there's nothing of quality in this game that's cheap.

Old Bob has been shooting pretty easy loading paper patched bullets with BH extremely accurately to 500 yards for a couple years now. My own last couple 500yd shots with BH were grouped at 1.5" or there about.

It obviously won't work with the procedures you use when shooting bullets .001" under the land size for targets only. For me, that's way to loose if a bullet falls down the barrel. However, it'll go bang if you load it with your hunting bullets that are TIGHT in your barrel.

 

[Idaholewis]

My bullets are sized to Bore, or Just slightly under, Depending on the Gun? I have Several BP Rifles that i Target Shoot, Each has a little Different Bore.

 

[sabotloader]

After trying their powder and it Failing for my application, I ABSOLUTELY agree with them above.

But What i DON’T agree with is where they Say Poor Accuracy from a loose fitting Bullet.

ALL of my Target Bullets are loose, Most slide down my Bores with ZERO help, when they get to the powder I give a light, Consistent push. Does it look like i have an issue with accuracy? I have a YouTube Channel FULL of Videos showing how well it works, most recently at 600 Yards

No you don't not have a problem with accuracy because you are using real black powder which will fully ignite with or without pressure being applied. The ignition of the powder causes enough pressure to obturate the soft lead bullet to the bore (lands and grooves are filled with the obturation) and at that point the bullet is not really a bore rider on the way up. If you shot a small enough soft lead bullet (in diameter) it would still obturate some but not enough to grab the lands pressure would be lost and velocity would be impaired and your accuracy would be zilch!

Western's indication that PowerBelt bullets may not shoot is because they may not seal the bore quick enough to maintain pressure and ignition of BH.

Am I somehow reading what they are saying Wrong?

Shooting bullets loaded into a sabot CAN have the same problem if they are not tight enough to maintain the pressure build up in the barrel + if they are loose enough they will not catch the lands and get the necessary rotation to be accurate.

Even those Lehigh sabotless I sent you grab the lands and grooves with the drive barbs to insure rotation - but more importantly the powder cup expands to fill the lands and grooves to seal the pressure behind the bullet. The expanded cup also insure rotation up the bore.

 

[sabotloader]

My bullets are sized to Bore, or Just slightly under, Depending on the Gun? I have Several BP Rifles that i Target Shoot, Each has a little Different Bore.

And that works well for you and many many others shooting soft lead bullets. But with obturation the bullets do expand in the barrel and tighten against the lands and grooves.

Try that same shooting techniques with with most copper/lead bullets and you would not be all that happy.

Actually in a way you already have when you got those hard lead No Excuse bullets that time.

 

[Idaholewis]

You are Wrong there Mike.

This is how i load, these Bullets are HARD, 1:20 Alloy Hard! I just got done shooting these to 600 Yards

 

[Idaholewis]

And that works well for you and many many others shooting soft lead bullets. But with obturation the bullets do expand in the barrel and tighten against the lands and grooves.

Try that same shooting techniques with with most copper/lead bullets and you would not be all that happy.

Actually in a way you already have when you got those hard lead No Excuse bullets that time.

If the ones in the Video above are not hard Enough, How about these? These Speer Deep Curl Jacketed Bullets are .500, Here they are being Shot in my .501 Bore, These Bullets LITERALLY Fell Down my Bore with ZERO help frm my Rod, and as you can CLEARLY see Accuracy was STELLAR

 

[sabotloader]

Even that bullet will obturate to some degree - not as much as soft lead but still enough to grab the lands. Some time load one of those then pull it and take note of the markings on the bullet. Probably not much of anything. Then shoot one into something you can catch the bullet with and not have a lot of bullet destruction - then look at the shank of the bullet you will see definite land markings. Without the bullet contacting the lands it would just slip up the barrel with very little rotation.

Other wise why even shot a rifled barrel just go back to a smoothbore.

 

[Idaholewis]

I have SEVERAL more Videos on my YouTube Channel from last Winter Shooting JACKETED Sabotless in my Sidelocks, Guess how they loaded?