Blackhorn 209 and non-sabot bullets not an ethical combination

[ElDiablito]

I use an optima and an accura, can't comment on wolf but can't see how its different. BH breech plug, 100gr by volume, thor bullet pushed down with moderate force but nothing overly hard, CCI or Fed 209A primer. It has reliably gone boom.



A few things one learns over the years (and I'm not that old) around reloading and gun stuff. Stock up on things you know you need (like a couple years worth) and ideally these things are desired by other people so when times get tricky barter for what you need. I needed some more 209s last year and I wanted CCI or Fed 209A only, so I traded some CCI small pistol primers (also desirable) for Fed 209A, now I have 500 of those which will last me for the foreseeable future.

Its not some crazy prepper mindset to have the components you need to be able to keep shooting for a couple years because in the last decade we've had a few waves of component shortages and they typically take a couple years to iron themselves out till the next one starts for whatever reason. Keep an ear out and resupply when something crosses your path at a reasonable cost. Trade as needed when you're in a bind.

Wise advice!

 

[Pickettpuncher]

No offense, but a muzzleloader with a high mag scope that shots groups sub 1 inch at 100 yard and has effective ranges of +400 yards. What's the difference between that and a high powered rifle?

No empties to pick up when you’re done

 

[GMB54-120]

Backing out the firing pin bushing is really the best option but then its primer specific. You dont want to slam it shut on a Fed209A after you have set the bushing for a Cheddite. You could set off the primer doing that.

You can back out the pin bushing to being flush with the frame....Insert a live primer and close the action....Get out a set of feeler gauges and see how much room is between the primer and bushing,

Oh and ive heard Walmart has Federal 209MZ primers for about $8 now. Even though they are a ML primer its the same primer they recommend for the FireStick.....>Guess whats in a Firestick?.......Blackhorn209 but Hodgdon is calling it Triple8. Someone called Federal and the CS person told them its actually CCI209M primer. They just changed the color and charged your butt more for it.

You can use this to check to see if any Walmart near you has them in stock

https://brickseek.com/walmart-inventory-checker/?sku=792966868

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

FYI, "muzzleloader" primers aren't as hot a shotgun primers, pardon if already known but if looking for hot primers don't mistake "muzzleloader" 209s as being hot.

 

[GMB54-120]

FYI, "muzzleloader" primers aren't as hot a shotgun primers, pardon if already known but if looking for hot primers don't mistake "muzzleloader" 209s as being hot.

Call Federal and ask them about the new 209MZ and see what they tell you.

Generally speaking that is true but they claimed the new one they offer is a rebranded black CCI209M and recommend them for the Firestick which has BH209 inside.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Call Federal and ask them about the new 209MZ and see what they tell you.

Generally speaking that is true but they claimed the new one they offer is a rebranded black CCI209M and recommend them for the Firestick which has BH209 inside.

Good to know.

 

[GMB54-120]

I have no idea if its true or not but next time im near our Walmart i will get a pack to test. They are $8.37 a pack near me. If its really a CCI209 or CCI209M i will know because i have a plug machined to fit a CCI exactly. Other primers wont allow the bolt to close.

 

[GCMan]

Backing out the firing pin bushing is really the best option but then its primer specific. You dont want to slam it shut on a Fed209A after you have set the bushing for a Cheddite. You could set off the primer doing that.

You can back out the pin bushing to being flush with the frame....Insert a live primer and close the action....Get out a set of feeler gauges and see how much room is between the primer and bushing,

Oh and ive heard Walmart has Federal 209MZ primers for about $8 now. Even though they are a ML primer its the same primer they recommend for the FireStick.....>Guess whats in a Firestick?.......Blackhorn209 but Hodgdon is calling it Triple8. Someone called Federal and the CS person told them its actually CCI209M primer. They just changed the color and charged your butt more for it.

You can use this to check to see if any Walmart near you has them in stock

https://brickseek.com/walmart-inventory-checker/?sku=792966868

Never considered messing with the bushing. I remove it to clean the firing pin and firing pin spring. I have always tightened it snuggly regardless of what primer I'm using - reasonable amount of force, make it nice and snug, nothing more. Never considered not backing it down all the way. Is that what you are say? I don't see too much of advantage, maybe less tolerance of the specific primer moving around?

 

[GCMan]

flush, 1/2 turn out, 1 full turn out. (left to right). I think flush to 1/2 turn seems like where the adjustments might be. full turn out seems way too much.

 

[GMB54-120]

Primer blowby is caused by sloppy headspace. When the bushing is flush and you measure how much room is between a primer and bushing you will have a good idea how loose it is. There is a way to shim the bushing out too but i dont have the part number you need handy. CVA used to sell bushing shims but they no longer offer them. McMasters does sell some that will work or get you very close.

The ideal situation is to shim the bushing out so when you close the action you get a .003 crush on a UNFIRED primer. That will stop almost all blowby but like i said its primer specific. Change primers and you need to reset the headspace. Crush a primer too much and you take the chance of it going off when you snap the action shut.

 

[shelskov]

Blackhorn 209 and non-sabot bullets not an ethical combination (READ THIS !!!)

This guy seems likes an expert on this subject and is speaking from my own experiences with BH209 so far. I agree with him. Colorado should either change the rules to allow sabot bullets and BH209. Or strictly prohibit the use of BH209 on game in Colorado (my opinion). PLEASE READ HIS ARTCLE BEFORE COMMENTING!!!

My experience with BH209 and several types of non sabot bullets has been a series of failures (~10% failures) which could have ended up with an injured elk if I hadn't tested enough on the shooting range. At this point I will use Triple 777 FFFG on my Colorado Elk hunt this fall.

This article does a great job summing up my experiences on the target range and my conclusion of BH209.

You said it right in your thread: You didn't test enough. Don't generalize that certain combinations of products needs to be made illegal just because you didn't confirm your setup worked prior to hunting. That setup works perfectly for me. There is a saying: your mileage may vary. Test your equipment prior to use in the field. Don't take everything you read on forums or marketing material as gospel, confirm for yourself.

 

[sneaky]

It's like the archery world where the crossgun came into the picture and we had all the states adopting it for their archery seasons and Missouri held out for a few years and then succumbed to the industry.

The Tenpoint Nitro 505 supposedly shots at 505 ftp and it's cocked all the time and no need to draw back on the game animal. Is that bow like at all?

I personally feel the archery and muzzleloader were always supposed to an close range hunt. 50 yards with a bow and 100 yards with the muzzleloader.

No offense, but a muzzleloader with a high mag scope that shots groups sub 1 inch at 100 yard and has effective ranges of +400 yards. What's the difference between that and a high powered rifle?

You really are showing your narrow- mindedness at this point. CrossBOWS have been around thousands of years longer than compounds. Seems like the compounds should get the axe since they're the newest technology. Crossbows are far more restrictive to their users than compounds are. One shot, better make it count, because it's highly unlikely you'll get another. I've watched idiots empty a full quiver at animals out of a compound. Which is more ethical? Hell, I used to own an archery shop. I saw people every week that would be far better off using a crossbow instead of a compound. Ethical kills are important, and the numbers have born out the fact that crossbows have NOT had a detrimental impact on game populations since they were allowed in archery seasons. CWD and EHD and blue tongue are far more worrisome than any weapon type or season.

 

[sneaky]

Don't disagree, and that's why I qualifed with IME. I have left my CVA loaded (by accident) for a few months and never had any issues with gooey powder that wouldn't shoot. In fact, I've simply pulled the breech plug and had the BH run out all over (again by accident) after many, many, weeks. I've gone 8 or 9 months without cleaning it after range sessions with the rifle out of its case in a damp basement. No rust. Granted the nitride helps out a lot I'm sure, but I had the same experience with my stainless knight (stainless will eventually rust too for the uninitiatied). In contrast, with 777 loose/pellets, I've seen rust in a matter of days and I would NEVER leave a 777 load in the barrel for more than a day or two unless in a cold and dry environment. Hell, I've seen rust on a cleaned rifle standing in a gun case that had been shot with 777. Just not worth the hassle to me.

Gun cases are the worst way to store a rifle of any type. They draw and retain moisture because of poor air circulation.

 

[sneaky]

Longer seasons are justified through the lower success rate= hardly any population impact (archery) or lower participation rate (non-inline ML) = not much population management impact. Modern equipment changes these metrics how these seasons were established. No one forces you to shoot a ML during modern firearm season. Why do modern equipment pushers force their equipment into other seasons? Because they want to extend their seasons but don't want the reduced success rate or difficulty that comes with these extended length seasons.
That works out as long as there is a large population to hunt. If this is not the case, there will be season length reductions, access limitations through draws and other things.
So don't tell me the modern equipment will not influence season length or management population numbers.
A percussion and flint gun is good to about 100-140 yards with open sights and PRB. Your inline is sold with a scope and a 8" circle hit warranty at 200 yards out of the box. In fact, the modern ML is more capable than a slug gun which is a lot of times the allowed "deer hunting" firearm.

Ok, if you want to keep beating that drum. Post up the DATA that shows what detrimental effects that crossbows have had on game populations since being legalized in dozens of states. You've been ranting against them as well, so post up your proof. It should be something more substantial than "I don't like them and think they should be banned". Do you walk, or ride a horse to all your hunts? Seems that you think technology is overrated.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Have to laugh at all the hub bub over BH 209 by someone obviously not smart enough to make it work while everyone else does not have problems. Then the compound shooters whine and carry on about crossbows. The self bow shooters hate compounds with graphite arrows that should be banned. Whiny ass parochialism is one of the main things hurting hunting today. Fewer hunters every year and knuckleheads want to make it hard to get into hunting. We are our own worst enemy. BTW I started with Bear recurve and 45 cal round ball gun over 54 years ago and killed a ton of deer all over. Since then i have used compound, crossbow, longbow, self bow with real flint heads and about every type ML made. 99% of it is the guy behind it. But just to add my 2 cents IMO 777 is a nasty unreliable mess compared to BH 209! Ban it!

 

[0815]

Ok, if you want to keep beating that drum. Post up the DATA that shows what detrimental effects that crossbows have had on game populations since being legalized in dozens of states. You've been ranting against them as well, so post up your proof. It should be something more substantial than "I don't like them and think they should be banned". Do you walk, or ride a horse to all your hunts? Seems that you think technology is overrated.

Ask your DNR biologist how they determine their allowable county quotas on deer. Their main management tool is firearms.
It took Ohio only 2 years to have more deer killed with crossbows than with regular bows. How many more licenses did they sell? ( One of the arguments by the industry lobby). Barely any. Archery stores now stock more crossguns than compounds. In reality, a bunch of gun hunters picked up the crossgun in order to be earlier in the woods. If they kill a buck early, they can't kill one with a gun. These hunters would have never hunted the "archery season" because archery equipment needs some training and shooting angle discipline.
I have nothing against cross guns. They could have gotten their own season parallel with the ML season. The result would have been, that hardly anyone would use a crossbow.
Why? Because they could use an easier weapon at the same time.
They pushed the crossgun as archery equipment because they knew there would be almost zero demand if it would not be an easier choice in their targeted season.
There was zero grassroots support for crossguns. Purely industry money and lobbyists. Do you deny that?
I can tell you that our county quota in the last few years went from 4 to 2. That means there are less deer. There was no increase in license sales.

 

[Slugz]

I ran out of popcorn on this one! Wowza

 

[GCMan]

Did get better performance after adding the o-rings to my breech plug and using the Rio primers. No misfires with 10+ shots with BH209. Those two things seems to have helped a lot. I'm crossing my fingers for this to continue. Here is my group at 50 yards, open sights out of my CVA wolf, 110 gr BH209 by volume, 290 gr Hornady Bore Driver. I am also using a wad between powder and bullet.


I have no preference on powders. I'm all for better groups and easier cleanup as long as I get it to work reliability.

 

[bitterroot_reaper]

Doesn't it seem a little strange that BH209 has characteristics so different that any other black powder or substitute. Shelf life, cleanup, ballistics, requirements for ignition, etc?

I have the same results with (now discontinued) MZBlack. Non-corrosive, great shelf life, goes bang, decent velocity. I wish they would bring it back.

 

[Bluefish]

I have had issues with first shot misfires, but I found that shooting a primer or two after cleaning solves the problem. Blackhorn does muck up the primer hole quickly and does need cleaning. I really like it as it’s easy to clean and once I figured out I had to foul the bore, it’s been reliable.