Biden announces proposed gun control measures

[Opah]

I would Hope that you are correct, that not one Military or National Guard would fire on US citizens. But Facts are facts, some most definitely would with out hesitation

Just history my friend

 

[Opah]

You know thats enough of this what may or could be, apologies to all the loyal America solders, I meant no offence to you.
Thank you for your service

 

[Hoodie]

I would Hope that you are correct, that not one Military or National Guard would fire on US citizens. But Facts are facts, some most definitely would with out hesitation

Just history my friend

Kent State is an interesting example for you to choose. Given the political leanings of the protestors who were shot, do you think the National Guardsmen were leftists? Because you suggested that liberal military members would be more likely than conservatives to harm citizens.

I´m not saying that no service members would do this, or that it´s never happened.

In your original post you made an estimate of how many service members would be likely to engage citizens. You used your estimate of how many voted differently than you to come up with your figure.

According to your estimate that would be 520,000 out of 1.3 million. That´s close to half. It´s more than double the entire USMC.

You also made the assumption that ALL of those willing to do harm to citizens would be people with different political views than you, implying that ALL the people who tend to vote like you are implicitly more trustworthy and honorable.

Do you see the problem with those assumptions? Could they indicate bias? Is this type of thinking likely to promote division, fear and mistrust?

I know sheep on the left and sheep on the right. It seems to me there are plenty of people who stand to profit from pitting regular people like you and me against each other. I think if you knew more democrat servicemembers you wouldn´t overestimate the threat so much. I don´t lose sleep worrying my conservative buddies who are still in are gonna kick my door in some night.

Politicians and the media benefit from pushing normal people like us towards the extremes. They benefit from fear-mongering. You and I probably disagree about how best to spend tax revenue. We probably agree about gun legislation. I highly doubt weĺl ever need to go to war against one another.

 

[FLAK]

Let me just add my personal experience.
My BIL is retired AF and he is ecstatic at the thought
of right wing conservatives losing their 2nd Amendment
rights. Huge Biden and Obama fan.
Do I have 100% blind faith in our Military? NO.
I can hope, but I have my doubts.

 

[TheCougar]

I don’t know how this thread degenerated into the Armed Forces being treated as a pawn in a political argument.

I am an active duty officer in the USAF. The oath we swear is below, my emphasis added:

I, [STATE YOUR NAME], having been appointed a [RANK] in the United States [BRANCH OF SERVICE], do solemnly swear [OR AFFIRM] that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God.

The President of the United States is our Commander in Chief, and we have an obligation to follow LAWFUL orders, within the limits of constitutional authority, for the sole overarching purpose of defending the Constitution and the nation. There have been times where the US Military has been called to defend the Constitution against domestic enemies, most notably during Reconstruction under President Grant, mostly enforcing the 14th and 15th amendments. Grant’s biography is a worthwhile read in the current political climate. You think we have it bad now... we don’t.

Regardless of your political affiliations, the US Military isn’t for or against you. We are “you”. We are an all volunteer force dedicated to the preservation of our nation through the defense of the Constitution. We are not robotic conscripts that will follow any order we are given, nor are we free-wheeling mercenaries that will pick sides in a political clash. We come from all walks of life and political beliefs. If you want us to pick sides, you’ll be disappointed to learn that we are on the side of the Constitution and the lawful orders of our elected civilian representatives, regardless of blue or red.

Also, on a side note, using exceptionally rare and isolated examples of illegal behavior on the part of individual military personnel to prove an argument is a gross logical fallacy.

 

[Lou Sid]

You absolutely can buy grenade launchers, tanks, mortars, etc. Go away with accepting anymore infringements. Minnesota has already proven how ignorant it is as a voting populace, and you just reinforced it with this nonsense.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Thanks for this I laughed out loud!

 

[Hoodie]

Let me just add my personal experience.
My BIL is retired AF and he is ecstatic at the thought
of right wing conservatives losing their 2nd Amendment
rights. Huge Biden and Obama fan.
Do I have 100% blind faith in our Military? NO.
I can hope, but I have my doubts.

You think he cares enough to shoot you over it at Thanksgiving this year?

This isn´t so much about whether or not people disagree. They do. There are millions of pro-2A voters in this country and millions of voters who would support an assault weapons ban. Same with any other hot-button issue. Abortion, healthcare, defense spending, business regulation.

It´s about whether or not it´s reasonable to assume that a huge percentage of the people who think differently from you are a legitimate threat to you and your family´s safety.

I don´t think so.

I do think politicians (on both sides) and large media entities profit from peddling that idea though.

 

[Lou Sid]

You think we have it bad now... we don’t.

Agreed. I'm always surprised at the number of white males in the country that believe they have it so tough and everyone is out to get them. Lots of first world problems on this site.

 

[*zap*]

Actually, military members must follow orders regardless of their personal beliefs or face the consequences. Law enforcement in many states already follow orders to enforce laws that infringe on constitutional rights...FBI swat team murdered LaVoy either on orders or because they wanted to...Waco was the same.....Ruby Ridge was the same......government showing its all powerful assets.

No one can predict what military members will do but they are sworn to follow orders or face the consequences. Lets hope we never get a chance to find out....but NG troops did confiscate legally owned weapons in the Katrina fiasco on some local politicians orders. Old woman thrown to the ground for having a revolver on her person in her own house by local law enforcement. She was being interviewed by a news crew.......never threatened anyone with the handgun, just said she had a way to defend herself and she did not want to be evacuated. People in New Orleans were told to shelter at the sports dome and were then locked in with no law enforcement protection while gangs had their way with everyone...so, do not tell me what will never happen.

 

[Hoodie]

You know thats enough of this what may or could be, apologies to all the loyal America solders, I meant no offence to you.
Thank you for your service

None taken. These are super contentious issues and tensions are high these days. I hope I didn´t come off like too much of an ass in responding to your post. I do think people having discussions over stuff like this is important.

All the best.

 

[*zap*]

Race being brought into a gun control argument......wtf?

Libs never cease to amaze..

 

[FLAK]

You think he cares enough to shoot you over it at Thanksgiving this year?

This isn´t so much about whether or not people disagree. They do. There are millions of pro-2A voters in this country and millions of voters who would support an assault weapons ban. Same with any other hot-button issue. Abortion, healthcare, defense spending, business regulation.

It´s about whether or not it´s reasonable to assume that a huge percentage of the people who think differently from you are a legitimate threat to you and your family´s safety.

I don´t think so.

I do think politicians (on both sides) and large media entities profit from peddling that idea though.

yeah, I'm a danger for questioning my Govt.
Like thats something new.

 

[Hoodie]

Actually, military members must follow orders regardless of their personal beliefs or face the consequences. Law enforcement in many states already follow orders to enforce laws that infringe on constitutional rights...FBI swat team murdered LaVoy either on orders or because they wanted to...Waco was the same.....Ruby Ridge was the same......government showing its all powerful assets.

No one can predict what military members will do but they are sworn to follow orders or face the consequences. Lets hope we never get a chance to find out....but NG troops did confiscate legally owned weapons in the Katrina fiasco on some local politicians orders. Old woman thrown to the ground for having a revolver on her person in her own house by local law enforcement. She was being interviewed by a news crew.......never threatened anyone with the handgun, just said she had a way to defend herself and she did not want to be evacuated. People in New Orleans were told to shelter at the sports dome and were then locked in with no law enforcement protection while gangs had their way with everyone...so, do not tell me what will never happen.

Well, I know Article 92 of the UCMJ only outlines the punishment for disobeying a LAWFUL order.

Waco and Ruby Ridge are interesting examples.

Both involved the FBI´s Hostage Rescue Team. HRT exists essentially because of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which prevents the use of US Forces (not the NG) for enforcing domestic policy on US Soil.

More people worried about this stuff should know about the Posse Comitatus Act.

Which branch were you in?

 

[*zap*]

I am in the militia. PC can be voided in certain circumstances and active military placed on the streets to control the country.

If congress/potus pass a confiscation bill and the military are lawfully placed on the streets to enforce such a bill that would be a lawful order.....

 

[Hoodie]

yeah, I'm a danger for questioning my Govt.
Like thats something new.

How on Earth was that your takeaway from what I said?

No one is calling you a danger. That´s the opposite of the point I was making.

 

[TheCougar]

Agreed. I'm always surprised at the number of white males in the country that believe they have it so tough and everyone is out to get them. Lots of first world problems on this site.

“We” wasn’t intended to be anything other than our country and all her citizens. Basically, if you think our current political climate, violence, and strife are bad now - go read Grant’s biography.

 

[Hoodie]

I am in the militia. PC can be voided in certain circumstances and active military placed on the streets to control the country.

If congress/potus pass a confiscation bill and the military are lawfully placed on the streets to enforce such a bill that would be a lawful order.....

The circumstances under which Posse Comitatus can be worked around do not include the enforcement of a new domestic law. Regular old law enforcement would have to handle that one.

I´m not trying to discount your experience here, but I think it´s reasonable to suggest that people who have served in the military are probably better sources for information on the UCMJ than people who weren´t. Articles 91 and 92 of the UCMJ only pertain to lawful orders. Service members are not obligated to obey unlawful orders.

Which is irrelevant to this particular discussion because of Posse Comitatus.

Gun issues in America won´t be addressed by the US military. They will be decided by voters and elected officials. If new laws are passed those laws will be enforced by..........law enforcement.

 

[*zap*]

You have no clue how any gun rights issues will wind up being addressed in the USA. The fact that you think you can predict the future shows your lack of good judgement.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I am in the militia.

interestingly, technically every military age male in the US is in the militia. I am too fat and old now to qualify. See excerpt form US code below.

BTW - I am hearing Biden plans a flurry of executive orders right out of the gate. Have not heard of gun control measures among them. perhaps they will save that fight for later.

it would be tragic for a lot of reasons, but I would hate for some gun violence in the next view days to hand the new administration a fresh opportunity to prioritize gun control.

10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes​

(a)
The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)
the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)
the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, § 311; Pub. L. 85–861, § 1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, § 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered § 246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, § 1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)

 

[Desk Jockey]

The military operates on US soil a lot more than you might think.