Beginner Caliber and Rifle

[Tylsmith33]

all my kids started out with .243 has worked great

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I appreciate everyone’s help here. Since I have a 7RM, my gut is leading me toward a 7mm-08. This will allow me to have only .284”bullets for loading. My workbench is fully ready to handload as soon as I can get primers…that’s whole other story. While everyone made some good arguments for other calibers, it seems those with 7mm-08’s are more than satisfied with them.

My thought is I’ll likely purchase a rifle with a threaded barrel for a brake. This will take some of the recoil off the shooter which for a kid and/or first time shooter is a good thing. Right now I’m looking hard at the Bergara B-14 Ridge so any feedback on that is appreciated!

Thanks again everyone.

-RadDad

Just know that the pressure wave associated with shooting a braked rifle can be just as disconcerting/distracting as the recoil of that same rifle unbraked.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

The recoil of a 7mm-08 is above the natural comfortable limit for the average adult male? Maybe if you rest it on the tip of your nose or your balls.

In all seriousness, some people aren’t cut out to do certain things and it’s no big deal. But we shouldn’t make monsters from moles. If the average male can’t handle a 7mm-08, we are in trouble.

It seems the average adult male has reading comprehension issues as well.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

About the worst thing someone could do is give a new shooter a braked rifle.


The 7mm-08 has about 15 ft-lbs of recoil in a 7.5lb rifle. That doesn’t seem like much (it’s over the comfortable limit for the average adult male, btw); however, it is quite different for a smaller framed shooter. 15 ft-lbs of recoil for a 100lb person is about equivalent to a 7.5lb 300 mag with 180gr bullets for a 200lb person. It’s actually worse than that though due to smaller shooters and females having significantly less upper body mass and especially neck strength, aka- whiplash and concussions.


For everyone saying “my kid does fine”, you need to understand the real effects of recoil on them- a 7mm-08 with 120’s is like you shooting a 300 Weatherby mag full tilt with 200gr bullets.

I posted my response about the pressure wave associated with shooting a braked rifle before I read this. I could not agree more with what you have posted. Then there's the issue of shooting a game animal with a braked rifle without hearing protection.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Let's run a drill here. A young person is going to shoot this deer at 200 yards. Where would you be able to place a shot with a 7-08 that a hit in the same place with a 223 with a bullet of similar construction would be inadequate?

 

[Clarktar]

I know the CA regs and copper bullet/ no suppressors, etc issues are important, but unless those kids have, and will get considerable trigger time (100s of rounds), I'd suggest a smaller cartridge. (Grendel?? Or one of the small 6mm comp chamberings?....does CA have caliber restrictions?

Last weekend I helped 4 kids fill tags in the MT youth deer hunt. 2 shooting .243s (13 year old and a 10 year old), 1 6.5creed (11 year old) and my daughter (12 year old) with her .223 (suppressed)

The .243s and 6.5cm took a combined total of 15 rounds to fill 3 tags. And in watching this all unfold, it's clear to me that those are pretty big guns for kids. One comfortable shot thru the lungs with the .223 had a deer on the ground in less than 20 yards....

I know my daughter would have not hunted her second and third years if she knew the kick and bark of one of those bigger rifles was coming with every squeeze.

Did the .243 have a brake? Wondering if that would reduce the felt recoil to something similar or less than a .223

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[cuerro viejo]

Let's run a drill here. A young person is going to shoot this deer at 200 yards. Where would you be able to place a shot with a 7-08 that a hit in the same place with a 223 with a bullet of similar construction would be inadequate?

My personal favorite shot. Not one I’m letting a new shooter take

Neck shoulder crease essentially being a high shoulder shot where you are breaking the spine.

Now if you hit low with the 223 you are in for long track job and will only have a small hole with the likely hood of zero blood.

222, 223 are limited in there shot placement. But are cheap to practice with.

There is a substantial difference in on game performance with minimal recoil difference between the 222/223 vs 22-250, 220swift and 22CM. Both have the ability to run heavier bullets, thus increasing on game performance at longer ranges. Why wouldn’t you move up in powder capacity to open up more shot options, especially when there is minimum recoil increase

 

[mt100gr.]

Did the .243 have a brake? Wondering if that would reduce the felt recoil to something similar or less than a .223

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

None of the other rifles had brakes or cans. But yes, in my experience, a .243 or 6.5cm with a brake is very soft-shooting. And fun!! Again, in my experience, hunting situations with kids, and even some adults, are really tough to use a braked rifle. I personally won't shoot with a brake unless I have plugs in my ears under my muffs....and I've yet to meet a 12 year old that can even manipulate foam plugs we'll enough to use them correctly.

I had a terminator brake on a 6.5 for a while. Unbelievable recoil reduction and Unbelievable concussion for the shooter. I wouldn't put a kid behind that rifle and have since sold that brake. It was downright obnoxious.

 

[mt100gr.]

Did the .243 have a brake? Wondering if that would reduce the felt recoil to something similar or less than a .223

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

I think the biggest issue with these particular hunters is a lack of trigger time. (And the excitement of a buck in the scope with a fired up dad in their side pocket!)

They've shot enough to know that the rifle is gonna hit back, but not enough to be 100% prepared for it and comfortable at crunch time.

And my daughter is no exception. She could have shot her rifle a lot more in the past year. She loves my T1x .22LR with the suppressor and her .223 is identical in every way (on purpose).

 

[260madman]

6 ARC.

Because it’s California….


If you can’t kill a deer with this I can’t help you.

 

[Formidilosus]

My personal favorite shot. Not one I’m letting a new shooter take

Neck shoulder crease essentially being a high shoulder shot where you are breaking the spine.

Now if you hit low with the 223 you are in for long track job and will only have a small hole with the likely hood of zero blood.

Please show or tell exactly where hitting low results in a track job for a 223 shooting bullets, but doesn’t for a 7mm-08.

222, 223 are limited in there shot placement. But are cheap to practice with.

Use better bullets. Then they aren’t limited at all.

There is a substantial difference in on game performance with minimal recoil difference between the 222/223 vs 22-250, 220swift and 22CM. Both have the ability to run heavier bullets, thus increasing on game performance at longer ranges. Why wouldn’t you move up in powder capacity to open up more shot options, especially when there is minimum recoil increase

What is the substantial difference in tissue damage between them, and which two can “run heavier bullets” and which ones can’t?

 

[ARK_Ginger]

My personal favorite shot. Not one I’m letting a new shooter take

Neck shoulder crease essentially being a high shoulder shot where you are breaking the spine.

Now if you hit low with the 223 you are in for long track job and will only have a small hole with the likely hood of zero blood.

222, 223 are limited in there shot placement. But are cheap to practice with.

There is a substantial difference in on game performance with minimal recoil difference between the 222/223 vs 22-250, 220swift and 22CM. Both have the ability to run heavier bullets, thus increasing on game performance at longer ranges. Why wouldn’t you move up in powder capacity to open up more shot options, especially when there is minimum recoil increase

It seems like your personal experience is helping you miss the point of the argument being made here.

With better bullets in a 223 Remington there is no difference in outcome shooting this deer with (insert whatever caliber). There is an entire thread that's already been linked here that illustrates this to be true, although there are still many that will deny its effectiveness.

With a new shooter it would be best to use a caliber such as 223, which is cheap to shoot in quantity and has low recoil to build the confidence and ability necessary to make good shots on game. Since we know the outcome of shooting game with good bullets in a 223 is no different that larger calibers, it's a win-win.

Sure, plenty of parents raised their kids shooting bigger calibers, for me it was 30-06, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice.

 

[ODB]

7mm-08

 

[Margoot]

I bought my 9 year old son a Savage stainless synthetic lightweight hunter last year in 243. It is a small, light rifle that is perfect for a young hunter or smaller adult and it shoots great. I like it so well that I use it too and am considering buying one for myself in a different caliber. The 243 is a great deer caliber and the recoil is almost non-existent. 7mm-08 would be a great choice as well. This rifle would fit her now and she could use it her entire life.

 

[dieselchessy]

I started my boys both with 7mm-08 rifles. Both rifles were 8#+ with scope, ect... Both kids used the Hornady Custom lite reduced recoil ammo for the first few years. Its a 120 SST at about 2700fps. In all cases, a few deer and elk each boy, the bullets performed OK. Sometimes jacket and lead would be separated against the far hide of an elk.
Now days I shoot 120TSX or TTSX over RE15 in my rifle. One kid shoots the same and the other is shooting 131 Hammers over Varget. Velocities in the 2850+ range.

My Boys were ~70 to 80# when started and now are in the 150 to 180# range. They never seemed to have issue with the recoil. They always shot pretty well and continue to do so. The biggest impact to their shooting seemed to be becoming teenagers and obtaining an ego.

On some hunts I have them use my 10#+ 6.5 creedmoor off a tripod. The setup helps a lot with holding steady. Its also of a recoil level that is fun to shoot.
I didn't build my kids light weight rifles on purpose to try and mitigate recoil and aid them in holding steady.

The recoil tables I reference have the 7mm-08 in the 12# recoil range unless using 150+ grain bullets. Not that I've ever measured.

I do agree though, the 7mm-08 is slightly above the "Fun to shoot" recoil range. Probably best to have kids start in the "Fun to shoot" range.

 

[cuerro viejo]

It seems like your personal experience is helping you miss the point of the argument being made here.

With better bullets in a 223 Remington there is no difference in outcome shooting this deer with (insert whatever caliber). There is an entire thread that's already been linked here that illustrates this to be true, although there are still many that will deny its effectiveness.

With a new shooter it would be best to use a caliber such as 223, which is cheap to shoot in quantity and has low recoil to build the confidence and ability necessary to make good shots on game. Since we know the outcome of shooting game with good bullets in a 223 is no different that larger calibers, it's a win-win.

Sure, plenty of parents raised their kids shooting bigger calibers, for me it was 30-06, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice.

Please show or tell exactly where hitting low results in a track job for a 223 shooting bullets, but doesn’t for a 7mm-08.





Use better bullets. Then they aren’t limited at all.




What is the substantial difference in tissue damage between them, and which two can “run heavier bullets” and which ones can’t?

I use TSX or TTSX in the 22-250 . In the 223, they lack the velocity to maximize wound channel and or penetration especially as ranges extend. Every bullet is designed for a optimal impact velocity range. Slower the velocity the lessor the construction has to be. Monolithic do better at higher velocity/lighter weight(for caliber). At same stand point thin jacketed cup and core bullets in .22 may shed at higher RPM or be explosive in impact. 223 wound channel will not be has large as the 223. I switch from the 223 to the 22-250 for a multiple of reasons all based of culling results.


Same principle applies to a bolt action 30-30 vs 308/30-06/300.

I’m don’t disagree that you can kill everything in the world with a 223, im just questioning why limit your shot placement options. Same reason why I think 7-08/260/6.5CM shot placement increase is enough to justify the increase in recoil.

Personally I think the bigger issue is trigger time for beginners then recoil of mild sized calibers like 6.5 CM or 7-08

 

[260madman]

I’m don’t disagree that you can kill everything in the world with a 223, im just questioning why limit your shot placement options. Same reason why I think 7-08/260/6.5CM shot placement increase is enough to justify the increase in recoil.

Personally I think the bigger issue is trigger time for beginners then recoil of mild sized calibers like 6.5 CM or 7-08

What different shot placement?

 

[cuerro viejo]

It seems like your personal experience is helping you miss the point of the argument being made here.

With better bullets in a 223 Remington there is no difference in outcome shooting this deer with (insert whatever caliber). There is an entire thread that's already been linked here that illustrates this to be true, although there are still many that will deny its effectiveness.

With a new shooter it would be best to use a caliber such as 223, which is cheap to shoot in quantity and has low recoil to build the confidence and ability necessary to make good shots on game. Since we know the outcome of shooting game with good bullets in a 223 is no different that larger calibers, it's a win-win.

Sure, plenty of parents raised their kids shooting bigger calibers, for me it was 30-06, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice.

There is a substantial difference in 7-08 recoil and 30-06

I understand what he is saying I just disagree with the recoil increase being that significant. I cull with 22-250. I control a lot of the things around the use of it because of the liberal laws in the state. If I didn’t have the laws I would step up to a larger caliber to optimize the different ranges and conditions I’m going to encounter.

There is a substantial difference in monolithic performance in regards to velocity especially in just 223 to 22-250. Sure you can kill everything with a 223. Why limit your shot placement and opportunity? That’s all I’m saying

 

[Formidilosus]

I use TSX or TTSX in the 22-250 . In the 223, they lack the velocity to maximize wound channel and or penetration especially as ranges extend. Every bullet is designed for a optimal impact velocity range. Slower the velocity the lessor the construction has to be. Monolithic do better at higher velocity/lighter weight(for caliber). At same stand point thin jacketed cup and core bullets in .22 may shed at higher RPM or be explosive in impact. 223 wound channel will not be has large as the 223. I switch from the 223 to the 22-250 for a multiple of reasons all based of culling results.

If all I shot were monos I’d think 223’s were marginal as well. Shoot 77gr TMK’s and see what a good bullet does.

Same principle applies to a bolt action 30-30 vs 308/30-06/300.

I’m don’t disagree that you can kill everything in the world with a 223, im just questioning why limit your shot placement options. Same reason why I think 7-08/260/6.5CM shot placement increase is enough to justify the increase in recoil.

Once again, what shot placement can you take with a 7mm-08 that won’t work with a 223 and a good bullet on the animal picture posted? (Note: Barnes monos create poor terminal damage).

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

My personal favorite shot. Not one I’m letting a new shooter take

Neck shoulder crease essentially being a high shoulder shot where you are breaking the spine.

Now if you hit low with the 223 you are in for long track job and will only have a small hole with the likely hood of zero blood.

222, 223 are limited in there shot placement. But are cheap to practice with.

There is a substantial difference in on game performance with minimal recoil difference between the 222/223 vs 22-250, 220swift and 22CM. Both have the ability to run heavier bullets, thus increasing on game performance at longer ranges. Why wouldn’t you move up in powder capacity to open up more shot options, especially when there is minimum recoil increase

I may be missing it, but that doesn't seem to answer the question I asked.