Beginner Caliber and Rifle

[Formidilosus]

The recoil of a 7mm-08 is above the natural comfortable limit for the average adult male? Maybe if you rest it on the tip of your nose or your balls.

In all seriousness, some people aren’t cut out to do certain things and it’s no big deal. But we shouldn’t make monsters from moles. If the average male can’t handle a 7mm-08, we are in trouble.

I didn’t say a 7mm-08 will break your shoulder, I said it above the level for the average male. That means shooting performance is greatly and measurably reduced. Both the British with the adoption of the 303, and the US in separate projects at the start of the 20th century independently found that recoil above 12 and 13 ft-lbs (ish) level significantly reduced the shooting ability of troops.

 

[MeatMissile]

I didn’t say a 7mm-08 will break your shoulder, I said it above the level for the average male. That means shooting performance is greatly and measurably reduced. Both the British with the adoption of the 303, and the US in separate projects at the start of the 20th century independently found that recoil above 12 and 13 ft-lbs (ish) level significantly reduced the shooting ability of troops.

Modern stock design, recoil pads, and we aren’t sustaining fire on a deer. It’s a couple shots, tops. We aren’t talking shooting full auto with a BAR or an M-14.

 

[Formidilosus]

Modern stock design, recoil pads, and we aren’t sustaining fire on a deer. It’s a couple shots, tops. We aren’t talking shooting full auto with a BAR or an M-14.

I’m not sure what your point is? If something effects you in five to ten shots, it effects you on the first shot.

I see hundreds of thousands of rounds shot a year. Everyone has lower performance as recoil goes up- everyone. Shooting groups from a bench does not adequately show shooting ability of an individual.
While there is a relatively steady decline in shooting performance as ft-lbs of recoil go up from 4’ish pounds on a 223, to 6.5’ish on a 6.5 Grendel, to 10-11ish on a 243/6mm CM, there is a measurable jump in shot errors at around 13-15ft-lbs. The 6.5cm in a lighter weight rifle without a break is actually about the limit where shooting performance takes a marked down turn. Then performance steadily drops as recoil goes up, and there’s another large drop in shootability between 18-20 ft-lbs. etc, etc.

 

[MeatMissile]

I’m not sure what your point is? If something effects you in five to ten shots, it effects you on the first shot.

I see hundreds of thousands of rounds shot a year. Everyone has lower performance as recoil goes up- everyone. Shooting groups from a bench does not adequately show shooting ability of an individual.
While there is a relatively steady decline in shooting performance as ft-lbs of recoil go up from 4’ish pounds on a 223, to 6.5’ish on a 6.5 Grendel, to 10-11ish on a 243/6mm CM, there is a measurable jump in shot errors at around 13-15ft-lbs. The 6.5cm in a lighter weight rifle without a break is actually about the limit where shooting performance takes a marked down turn. Then performance steadily drops as recoil goes up, and there’s another large drop in shootability between 18-20 ft-lbs. etc, etc.

My point is you’re overdramatizing the effect of recoil over the average number of shots someone takes to zero a hunting rifle and take game. A 1/2 inch group vs a 1 inch group is a 100% increase in group size…and would have NO appreciable impact on the effectiveness of the shot.

 

[z987k]

I’m not sure what your point is? If something effects you in five to ten shots, it effects you on the first shot.

I see hundreds of thousands of rounds shot a year. Everyone has lower performance as recoil goes up- everyone. Shooting groups from a bench does not adequately show shooting ability of an individual.
While there is a relatively steady decline in shooting performance as ft-lbs of recoil go up from 4’ish pounds on a 223, to 6.5’ish on a 6.5 Grendel, to 10-11ish on a 243/6mm CM, there is a measurable jump in shot errors at around 13-15ft-lbs. The 6.5cm in a lighter weight rifle without a break is actually about the limit where shooting performance takes a marked down turn. Then performance steadily drops as recoil goes up, and there’s another large drop in shootability between 18-20 ft-lbs. etc, etc.

You're completely out to lunch on this. 7mm-08 is basically the original youth cartridge after the 243 win.
30-06 is where people start to have issues. 7-08 is about as light of recoil big game gun you can possibly get.
My 7mm-08 has so little recoil, I can follow and spot my own shots out of my scope from trigger pull to impact. If that's too much, guns just aren't for you. I can put the thing on bags and not even hold it and pull the trigger and still do that.

I thought I was in the minority thinking heavy recoil is dumb, but my gripe is the magnums that are completely unnecessary for 99% of NA hunting, not the rifle doesn't even move cartridges.

 

[Formidilosus]

You're completely out to lunch on this. 7mm-08 is basically the original youth cartridge after the 243 win.

I’m out to lunch because the 7mm-08 was the original youth cartridge? Again, for a smaller framed shooter, the recoil from a 7mm-08 is not the same as the recoil for an average sized adult. When a 75-100lbs person fires a 7mm-08 in a normal to lightweight rifle, it is like a big 300 magnum to an average adult.

30-06 is where people start to have issues.

Based on what? Do you know this do to personal data collection and rigerous study? Or because that’s what writers have said for years?

7-08 is about as light of recoil big game gun you can possibly get.

15 ft-lbs of recoil isn’t remotely as light as you can get.

My 7mm-08 has so little recoil, I can follow and spot my own shots out of my scope from trigger pull to impact. If that's too much, guns just aren't for you.

Where did I state that someone can’t shoot a 7mm-08 well? This thread is about “beginner caliber and rifle”. As time marches on, we learn more. The 7mm-08 was thought of as a light recoiling cartridge for newer shooters when it came out compared to the 7mm and 30cal magnums that were normal. No one paid attention to body size, nor did anyone really know how damaging impact and shock are to the human brain- especially young brains and small shooters.
Watch a slow motion video of kids shooting from field positions with rifles/cartridges in the 15ft-lb plus range and note how violently their head, shoulders and hands move in comparison to an average adult shooting large magnums.


This is a simple thing- what may not be a large deal to a 200lb practiced, stable, and strong male; is totally different to a newer/younger/weaker/smaller shooter.

 

[woods89]

My point is you’re overdramatizing the effect of recoil over the average number of shots someone takes to zero a hunting rifle and take game. A 1/2 inch group vs a 1 inch group is a 100% increase in group size…and would have NO appreciable impact on the effectiveness of the shot.

Have you seen the hunting drill posted on the forum here?

Shot at 100 yds, 7 MOA offhand, 5 MOA sitting unsupported, 3 MOA sitting supported, and 2 MOA prone. 20 shots, in 3 rounds, 5 shots per position. Some shots are timed.

It takes a really good rifleman to hit 15/20. A lot of folks are around 10/20. If we could all shoot 1 MOA from field positions you would be right, but from the sample size so far that doesn't seem to be the case.

Shooting that drill has helped me realize that if I have to hit something, under time, away from the bench I want my 223 bolt gun every time.

 

[ElPollo]

If you’re talking about handing a gun to an inexperienced kid, why start them out in something that kicks more? As a kid, I started out on a 243 in a Remington 600 with an 18” barrel. That gun would throw a 24” hoop of fire out the muzzle, and it gave me a flinch that took a long time to overcome. I would rather teach a kid fundamentals behind a soft shooter with a suppressor. Take as much of the noise and recoil out of the equation as you can.

 

[Michael54]

About the worst thing someone could do is give a new shooter a braked rifle.

Can you explain this pls? The main reason my son is using one is because its my wifes old rifle and on hand. I do make him use the electronic hearing muffs at all times when hunting. If they aren't on he's not allowed to shoot. I trust your judgement and if its something serious i'll go get him a smaller gun for sure.

 

[Michael54]

Also if it wasn't braked i'd agree that the 7mm08 is too much gun for my son right now.

 

[Formidilosus]

Can you explain this pls? The main reason my son is using one is because its my wifes old rifle and on hand. I do make him use the electronic hearing muffs at all times when hunting. If they aren't on he's not allowed to shoot. I trust your judgement and if its something serious i'll go get him a smaller gun for sure.

A braked rifle is not hearing safe with plugs or muffs. It’s hard to make them truly hearing safe with both plugs and muffs.

Brakes reduce recoil which is good for shooting, however greatly increase sound and concussion which is very bad for shooting.

 

[ElPollo]

A braked rifle is not hearing safe with plugs or muffs. It’s hard to make them truly hearing safe with both plugs and muffs.

Brakes reduce recoil which is good for shooting, however greatly increase sound and concussion which is very bad for shooting.

He’s correct. Braked centerfires are generally well above 170 dB. Most hearing protection will give you somewhere between 22-28 dB of noise reduction. You are way better off with a suppressor than a break.

 

[Tod osier]

I shot a 7mm08 with 120 coppers quite a bit and it isn't as easy on the shoulder as some have said, i wouldnt give one to my kid after that experience. Going with a reduced load would get you there if needed. If you need a brake since supressors are not legal, going with one that directs gasses sideways, not angled back will eliminate concussion for the shooter, but also reduces efficiency and is still loud.

 

[BLJ]

@Formidilosus. In post #43 you made refernece to performance dropping as recoil increases. Do you have any links to these studies? You said that there is a measureable jump in shot errors around 13-15 ft.lbs. I would like to look into this a little more. Thanks.

 

[Thinkingman]

You're completely out to lunch on this. 7mm-08 is basically the original youth cartridge after the 243 win.
30-06 is where people start to have issues. 7-08 is about as light of recoil big game gun you can possibly get.
My 7mm-08 has so little recoil, I can follow and spot my own shots out of my scope from trigger pull to impact. If that's too much, guns just aren't for you. I can put the thing on bags and not even hold it and pull the trigger and still do that.

I thought I was in the minority thinking heavy recoil is dumb, but my gripe is the magnums that are completely unnecessary for 99% of NA hunting, not the rifle doesn't even move cartridges.

Dude...Just.....No....Comically uninformed...

 

[KoolBreeze]

From my personal experience the anticipated noise of the shot has way affect on accuracy than the jolt I receive from the recoil. As a kid I started out with 00 buckshot in an old Belgium made Browning A5 with no recoil pad. From that I graduated to a 30-06. I somehow managed to kill numerous deer with both of those guns. But those experiences done what seems to be irreputable harm to my marksmanship. Some 35-40 years later, I still flinch, pull shots, and it can take a few shots to get right mentally. I’m a big guy with a high tolerance of pain and certainly not scared of the recoil.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus. In post #43 you made refernece to performance dropping as recoil increases. Do you have any links to these studies? You said that there is a measureable jump in shot errors around 13-15 ft.lbs. I would like to look into this a little more. Thanks.

1929 British Textbook of Small Arms is one that is publicly available. It does not go into great detail, however states-


“As regards the sensation of recoil, it seems well established that the actual velocity of recoil of the gun is a very great factor. In shot guns weighing 6 to 7 lbs. 15 f/s. has been long established as a maximum above which gun-headache is sure to ensue. But with an elephant rifle weighing perhaps 15 lbs. such a velocity is unbearable for more than one or two shots.”



The 1909 Edition states-


“15 ft. lbs. of free recoil energy is the maximum allowable for a military service rifle”





The US ARMY did a study that is publicly available on the effect of aiming error and shooter willingness to continue firing. Some screen shots below-











The ft-lbs of recoil they measured for adult male soldiers varied from between 18 and 43ft-lbs, and also included recoil mitigating devices. Also, it revealed that once someone was exposed to a level of recoil that they were mildly uncomfortable with (18ft-lbs in this started causing it and was the lowest measured) psychological effects lasted even when not shooting guns with uncomfortable recoil forever, unless specifically conditioned out.

As well, blast and concussion effects greatly effected vertical aiming error (flinch) as much as recoil effects did.

 

[z987k]

I’m out to lunch because the 7mm-08 was the original youth cartridge? Again, for a smaller framed shooter, the recoil from a 7mm-08 is not the same as the recoil for an average sized adult. When a 75-100lbs person fires a 7mm-08 in a normal to lightweight rifle, it is like a big 300 magnum to an average adult.




Based on what? Do you know this do to personal data collection and rigerous study? Or because that’s what writers have said for years?





15 ft-lbs of recoil isn’t remotely as light as you can get.




Where did I state that someone can’t shoot a 7mm-08 well? This thread is about “beginner caliber and rifle”. As time marches on, we learn more. The 7mm-08 was thought of as a light recoiling cartridge for newer shooters when it came out compared to the 7mm and 30cal magnums that were normal. No one paid attention to body size, nor did anyone really know how damaging impact and shock are to the human brain- especially young brains and small shooters.
Watch a slow motion video of kids shooting from field positions with rifles/cartridges in the 15ft-lb plus range and note how violently their head, shoulders and hands move in comparison to an average adult shooting large magnums.


This is a simple thing- what may not be a large deal to a 200lb practiced, stable, and

Dude...Just.....No....Comically uninformed...

I promise I can put that rifle on a set of bags, not hold it save upright and the trigger,(tie my left hand behind my back if you will) and follow my shot from Tigger pull to impact through my own scope.
It's not that the recoil just isn't noticeable because I'm not a child. It's not there because the scope and rifle more or less don't even move.
I'm aware they do but it's very very minor.

 

[Formidilosus]

I promise I can put that rifle on a set of bags, not hold it save upright and the trigger,(tie my left hand behind my back if you will) and follow my shot from Tigger pull to impact through my own scope.
It's not that the recoil just isn't noticeable because I'm not a child. It's not there because the scope and rifle more or less don't even move.
I'm aware they do but it's very very minor.

That has nothing to do with aiming errors and follow-through on a human basis. I have little doubt that you shoot and kill with a 7mm-08, but that is separated from the reality of performance levels changing based on recoil. That has been proven repeatedly, and is across the board- everyone is effected by recoil.

Unequivocally using alternate field positions (prone, sitting, kneeling, offhand: supported and not), that as recoil goes up, hit rates go down. For an identical rifle system, the difference between 4ft-lbs and 15ft-lbs averages around a 15% less hit rate for trained adult males between 175-225 pounds.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I’m out to lunch because the 7mm-08 was the original youth cartridge? Again, for a smaller framed shooter, the recoil from a 7mm-08 is not the same as the recoil for an average sized adult. When a 75-100lbs person fires a 7mm-08 in a normal to lightweight rifle, it is like a big 300 magnum to an average adult.




Based on what? Do you know this do to personal data collection and rigerous study? Or because that’s what writers have said for years?





15 ft-lbs of recoil isn’t remotely as light as you can get.




Where did I state that someone can’t shoot a 7mm-08 well? This thread is about “beginner caliber and rifle”. As time marches on, we learn more. The 7mm-08 was thought of as a light recoiling cartridge for newer shooters when it came out compared to the 7mm and 30cal magnums that were normal. No one paid attention to body size, nor did anyone really know how damaging impact and shock are to the human brain- especially young brains and small shooters.
Watch a slow motion video of kids shooting from field positions with rifles/cartridges in the 15ft-lb plus range and note how violently their head, shoulders and hands move in comparison to an average adult shooting large magnums.


This is a simple thing- what may not be a large deal to a 200lb practiced, stable, and strong male; is totally different to a newer/younger/weaker/smaller shooter.

Everyone one of our crews kids use 7-08 or 6.5 creedmoor. 8 girls 4 boys. Ages range from 7 to now 21. Between them I’m guessing close to 300 deer and that’s probably low. They each take 4-6 a year. Grant it in last 7 years most those deer are killed with suppressors so that does change perceived recoil some.

I will say I think most new shooters have more issues with noise then recoil at first IMO