Barrel Cleaning…data

[mxgsfmdpx]

Summarizing would not do his words justice. He indicated numerous times the data was not drive some absolute recommendation. They collected pressure and velocity data from thousands of barrels using test ammo. They wanted to identify when unwanted anomalies (I forget his term, but it applied to their ammo testing and ensuring reliable data) would occur due to not cleaning or barrel wear. All he implied was this data indicated the ranges at which cleaning or barrel life would negatively impact their testing. Defining any negative impact is up to each individual user.

So you’re just echoing what strangers on the internet are saying with no actual presented numbers or data sets?

Interesting.

 

[bowrunner81]

I listened to their podcasts and I thought it was great to listen to, but I do agree they didn’t give examples of tested barrels. I think testing two of the same barrels throughout the life of the barrel would be great, with one being cleaned and one not.

I noticed some weird things happening with my Browning in 7prc. It still shoots fine, and acceptable, but I have gotten some pressure spikes and velocity spikes recently coupled with some groups opening up. I didn’t realize it until I thought about but I’m probably pushing 400 rounds now in it and have not cleaned thoroughly past the initial barrel brake in. So I did a thorough cleaning stripping it down to bare metal. I’ll report back if that took care of the issue or not.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Would someone be able to summarize their findings please?

Which rifles had issues when “not cleaned”?
What barrel length and twist rate?
What chambering?
What were the symptoms of the “issues”?
Did the same “issues” not present themselves on an identical rifle that was regularly cleaned?
If so, what was the cleaning interval?
If the only “issue” was “accuracy degradation” at what round count was this observed when not cleaned?

Appreciate not having to listen if possible if someone can summarize.

@prm ?

 

[swavescatter]

What's the downside of cleaning? Waste of 10 minutes and a few fouling rounds?

I don't clean often anymore, but a good scrubbing once every few hundred rounds helps me sleep better

 

[Tanner]

I don’t clean until a rifle tells me it needs it.

If I run into a barrel that won’t shoot unless it’s clean, that barrel becomes a tomato stake.

 

[Carl Ross]

Would be helpful and add validity if they shared this “report”.

I hate cleaning guns but if there is hard data on very large sample sizes showing failures or benefits that is something to consider for me.

I totally agree, I'd love to see the raw data.

People (outside of the bubble of the internet) often ask me about rifle cleaning. I tell them there is no consensus.

In PRS, I know or know of top shooters who clean between individual days of matches (like Francis Colon and Chad Heckler), and I know of top shooters who put on a barrel, shoot it out, and put on a new one (like Vibbert). Both have been quite successful. I think in the Houston Warehouse writeup they would clean, shoot a fouler, shoot a five shot group, and clean.

I'm familiar with Form's take and Ryan's take. And I'm familiar with Frank Green and the Hornady guys take (include Miles who initiated the group testing research on his own I believe).

I want to have my own opinions and not have to share other people's so much. I'm 764 rounds into carefully controlling my loads on my current 6 Dasher barrel and documenting 20 groups and chrono data between matches. It's an N of 1 (as any individual barrel is) but I'm interested to see how it goes. Maybe I'll start a thread to share results one day.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I totally agree, I'd love to see the raw data.

People (outside of the bubble of the internet) often ask me about rifle cleaning. I tell them there is no consensus.

In PRS, I know or know of top shooters who clean between individual days of matches (like Francis Colon and Chad Heckler), and I know of top shooters who put on a barrel, shoot it out, and put on a new one (like Vibbert). Both have been quite successful. I think in the Houston Warehouse writeup they would clean, shoot a fouler, shoot a five shot group, and clean.

I'm familiar with Form's take and Ryan's take. And I'm familiar with Frank Green and the Hornady guys take (include Miles who initiated the group testing research on his own I believe).

I want to have my own opinions and not have to share other people's so much. I'm 764 rounds into carefully controlling my loads on my current 6 Dasher barrel and documenting 20 groups and chrono data between matches. It's an N of 1 (as any individual barrel is) but I'm interested to see how it goes. Maybe I'll start a thread to share results one day.

Thanks for sharing and would love to see this!

I’d be able to run some numbers on a few of my guns as well. If you do post a thread with real data I’d be able to add my findings to it, between cleaned barrels and uncleaned barrels.

I’m currently trying to shoot out a factory tikka 8 twist rechambered to 22 Creedmoor barrel with zero cleaning. It’s at 1,200 rounds and still stacking. I have 4 more 22CM barrels and two Tikka rifles chambered for it. I’ll run one with regular cleaning and fouling and run one gun dirty with no cleaning. I can do the same with a few other “hot cartridges”.

 

[Marbles]

Did they test 100,000 guns? From what I’ve read here it’s all been “trust us bro”.

Where is the real data?

I’d love to see the numbers. I’m open to going back to cleaning every few hundred rounds like I used to, but so far in what I’ve seen, there is no benefit to shoving shit down my barrels.

Clean the action, bolt, throat, firing group with brake clean with barrel facing up, re-oil bolt and keep on rolling.

You are confounding. I'm doubtful cleaning prolongs barrel life are improves accuracy. They don't provide any good data on that, though they imply it does.

However, it only takes a few case reports with good methodology investigating the issue to prove issues can be created. They talk about this more in podcast 1 or 2, I've recounting an example twice alread, so it is pointless to do so again. I don't remember which podcast exactly as I listened to all three in one day.

Would you be able to share this here?

I'm not sure they give what you expect, but seriously, take the time to watch the podcast. Or don't, but just remember your choice the next time you are tempted to tell someone to read the 223 thread.

Would someone be able to summarize their findings please?

Which rifles had issues when “not cleaned”?
What barrel length and twist rate?
What chambering?
What were the symptoms of the “issues”?
Did the same “issues” not present themselves on an identical rifle that was regularly cleaned?
If so, what was the cleaning interval?
If the only “issue” was “accuracy degradation” at what round count was this observed when not cleaned?

Appreciate not having to listen if possible if someone can summarize.

Way to simple a construction of the issue. Cut vs button pulled, stainless vs CroMoly, chrome/nitride vs bare steel, powder used, bullet used, pressure loaded to would all influence this. Somebody would need a lot of time and money to trash enough barrels in even one cartridge to get good numbers.

They specify that their experience is based on cut rifled stainless steel test barrels. They have the advantage of actually measuring pressure with every shot and using reference ammunition.

They specify comment that velocity goes up with pressure, until velocity plateaus and pressure keeps going up.

What's the downside of cleaning? Waste of 10 minutes and a few fouling rounds?

I don't clean often anymore, but a good scrubbing once every few hundred rounds helps me sleep better

And they are not even advocating a good scrubbing.
Literally:
1. Run a patch soaked in something like Boretech Eliminator down the barrel.
2. A few strokes with a nylon brush.
3. Let it sit for 20 minutes or so and go do something else.
4. Run a patch or two down the bore to wipe it out.
5. Run a patch soaked in 99% alcohol down the bore to clean out the solvent.

I'm lazy, if you said I had to scrub for 45 minutes every 500 rounds I would take my chances. The risk is low. But I can do the above pretty easily.

They also talk about how aggressive cleaning destroys barrels and run a rod down it as little as possible.

 

[JohnB]

So you’re just echoing what strangers on the internet are saying with no actual presented numbers or data sets?

Interesting.

I'm mostly on team don't clean here but aren't you just echoing what you've read from others who have watched the 3 videos/podcasts?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I'm mostly on team don't clean here but aren't you just echoing what you've read from others who have watched the 3 videos/podcasts?

All I’ve asked for was the data to be presented. I plan to follow @Marbles suggestion and give it a listen.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

You are confounding. I'm doubtful cleaning prolongs barrel life are improves accuracy. They don't provide any good data on that, though they imply it does.

In what I’ve seen so far it doesn’t. Was wondering if they were seeing the opposite. Bummer on no data.

However, it only takes a few case reports with good methodology investigating the issue to prove issues can be created. They talk about this more in podcast 1 or 2, I've recounting an example twice alread, so it is pointless to do so again. I don't remember which podcast exactly as I listened to all three in one day.

I’ll give it a listen. Thanks.

I'm not sure they give what you expect, but seriously, take the time to watch the podcast. Or don't, but just remember your choice the next time you are tempted to tell someone to read the 223 thread.

Again, bummer on the lack of presented test data. I like to see numbers personally. I plan to listen. I don’t think I’ve ever told anyone to read a .223 thread. I’ve always advocated for folks trying things for themselves before blindly stating opinions as facts.

Way to simple a construction of the issue. Cut vs button pulled, stainless vs CroMoly, chrome/nitride vs bare steel, powder used, bullet used, pressure loaded to would all influence this. Somebody would need a lot of time and money to trash enough barrels in even one cartridge to get good numbers.

This is a good point. I do think taking two of the same gun and same barrel and comparing regular cleaning versus never cleaning would be good data to see from multiple users.

They specify that their experience is based on cut rifled stainless steel test barrels. They have the advantage of actually measuring pressure with every shot and using reference ammunition.

They specify comment that velocity goes up with pressure, until velocity plateaus and pressure keeps going up.

I’ll give it a listen but what are they saying this “leads to”? I’ve personally shot out 100s of barrels. VAST majority were cleaned, and lately none have been cleaned. So far there has been no “issues” and no discrepancy between barrel life and long term accuracy.

I realize this is very low volume overall so was hoping hornady had something tangible here in much larger sample size.

 

[HighUintas]

I haven't listened to part 3 yet, but I will.

In part 1 and 2 I remember it being fairly disappointing, as it was a big departure from what they did in their accuracy episodes.

However, I think there's a caveat to consider with their statements on cleaning and their data.

What are they measuring constantly, with all barrels and loads they test? Pressure. What metric does saami use as a basis for safe ammunition loading? Pressure. What could cause Hornady legal problems if they say for the average hunter/shooter, functionally, you don't really need to clean.... A dude that blew up his rifle and got hurt because he was an idiot with his loading practices but also happened to not clean his rifle ever.

I remember them mentioning that not cleaning their barrels caused a marked increase in pressure, going from safe to well above saami pressure. Is that likely going to cause a catastrophic failure of the action and an injury or death? Very likely not. But, considering the fact that saami ammunition has "safe" pressure guidelines, and they notice that not cleaning can increase pressure passed saami limits, why would they ever say it's ok to not clean?

As for accuracy, I don't remember if they spoke much on it in part 1 and 2, but yes I wouldn't be surprised if they noticed a dispersion change with pressure increase. Is it an increase that matters to the average hunter/shooter? I bet not.

Regardless, I prefer to just feel it out with each barrel I use, and clean it if I feel the need to clean, which is not very often anymore.

Seeing that these actions have such tremendous pressure handling capabilities, I'm not concerned that I'm going to injure myself by not cleaning. My main concern is that the barrel will decide to do something weird at an inconvenient time.

Also, you can't scream for data without giving hard data on subjects when asked, @Formidilosus . Where's the data on case geometry having an effect on efficiency or velocity for barrel length being a "myth"?

 

[Marbles]

’ll give it a listen but what are they saying this “leads to”? I’ve personally shot out 100s of barrels. VAST majority were cleaned, and lately none have been cleaned. So far there has been no “issues” and no discrepancy between barrel life and long term accuracy.

What I remember them recounting is primary pressure issues. But, that is also what got my attention. Blown primers, fire cutting of bolt face, case head separation are things they talk about seeing. They bring up the possibility of catastrophic failure, but it doesn't sound like they have seen it.

They talk about getting rifles and the box of supposed hot ammo and testing both (I outlined this more in earlier posts).

They have seen bullets get stuck in the bore due to carbon build up. Quinline personally had this happen and had to poor copper solvent down the bore and let it desolve part of the jacket to get it out. They have also at least once seen the same thing happen during a law enforcement training course.

That is what I remember at least.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What I remember them recounting is primary pressure issues. But, that is also what got my attention. Blown primers, fire cutting of bolt face, case head separation are things they talk about seeing. They bring up the possibility of catastrophic failure, but it doesn't sound like they have seen it.

They talk about getting rifles and the box of supposed hot ammo and testing both (I outlined this more in earlier posts).

They have seen bullets get stuck in the bore due to carbon build up. Quinline personally had this happen and had to poor copper solvent down the bore and let it desolve part of the jacket to get it out. They have also at least once seen the same thing happen during a law enforcement training course.

That is what I remember at least.

This is the type of info I’m after if they have the data and results posted.

My 7 year old sons shoots his 17 Mach 2 all the time. If they have empirical and unbiased evidence that cleaning will keep a bullet from jamming in the barrel when fired, and that never happens when cleaned, then he and I are gonna start cleaning his barrel. I would consider that a catastrophic failure.

 

[Formidilosus]

Also, you can't scream for data without giving hard data on subjects when asked,

I didn’t “scream for data”. I was trying to have a conversation with @Marbles while I was on the range and unable to listen, about what they said that lead him to his statements, however- he wasn’t interested in a discussion.

@Formidilosus . Where's the data on case geometry having an effect on efficiency or velocity for barrel length being a "myth"?

That’s not how that works. You prove a positive, not a negative (generally). If case geometry somehow makes a cartridge more efficient- that is less MV FPS loss per inch of barrel loss than other similar capacity cartridges, then it’s on someone to prove that it does. Not on people to prove that it does not.
Same with scopes and reliability- if someone says that “most scopes lose zero when dropped”- it’s on that person to prove that hypothesis out; that person does not get to say “prove they don’t lose zero”.

In hundreds of barrels from personal experience- from 223’s to large 338’s all of them lose on average 20-30fps per inch of barrel. By happenstance, or magic maybe- the information on “tests” that you can find also show the same thing.
So what in your experience says that some cartridges lose less FPS per inch of barrel than other cartridges due to case geometry?

 

[Formidilosus]

They have seen bullets get stuck in the bore due to carbon build up. Quinline personally had this happen and had to poor copper solvent down the bore and let it desolve part of the jacket to get it out. They have also at least once seen the same thing happen during a law enforcement training course.

Now you get to quote it- bullshit. There is no amount of “carbon build up” that is stopping a bullet in a bore. If that happened, then it was a squib- again, not unheard of with Hornady pistol ammo. That part right there- if- that is what was stated makes my questioning about why there wasn’t data, absolutely correct.

But of course they also stated in a podcast that not cleaning AR15’s for a thousand rounds will have the bolt breaking into pieces.

 

[Formidilosus]

Episode 103 and 114 were part 1 and 2.
They were from last year and last winter. They are the two that have been previously discussed- and were nothing but a play on emotions. Zero “data” in those two, but they did contain some great “experience” about how not cleaning AR15’s breaks bolts in a thousand rounds (IIRC) among other nuggets.

I will listen to part three, but the first two were an absolute travesty coming off of their “Your groups are too small” work. They did not follow the same program or standards, and in fact in those two episodes did what they had just said not to do.

 

[Bowfinn]

They have seen bullets get stuck in the bore due to carbon build up. Quinline personally had this happen and had to poor copper solvent down the bore and let it desolve part of the jacket to get it out. They have also at least once seen the same thing happen during a law enforcement training course.

That is what I remember at least.

He said that in episode 2 around the 33:00 minute mark. He was doing some extreme testing when the bullet got stuck. He didn’t mention that it was a round count thing. It was likely a low pressure test.

 

[prm]

There’s no data in here and the title is data… Care to share any @prm ?

A good place to start looking would be the actual video.

THEN, you can draw your own conclusions on what they shared, and what you think their intent was with this video.

In regards to cleaning, I thought their estimated ranges between cleanings were much higher round counts than what has been preached by traditional gun media. For those who only shoot a couple boxes a year in a given rifle, and that is a meaningful percentage of hunters, it would amount to many years between cleaning, if ever. They went out of their way to indicate there are excursions in both cleaning and barrel life, well outside the estimation ranges they presented.
I do wish they shared more details on what drove their cleaning. It was stated that they have an “inclusion zone” for pressure, velocity, and dispersion using reference ammo developed for each specific barrel, and once outside that zone, it warranted cleaning or retiring the barrel. He never said or implied you must clean once in the range, only that it is a window to start to “pay attention “.