AZ “pioneer” season for sheep

[canyonhunter47]

ok, think about this for a minute though. You’re 70 years old and have been putting in for sheep for 20 years now. You have a lifelong dream of accomplishing a sheep hunt. You look in the mirror and realize that you probably only have 2-3 years of putting in left in you before there is no way you’re getting your bag of bones up the mountain.

Wouldn’t you be pretty proud that your state has set aside a very limited number of tags for a sub par trophy so you can have that opportunity once? Maybe your whole family comes along on the hunt?

And at a younger age, if you don’t draw a sheep tag by the time you’re 70 you know there is still SOMETHING to look forward to?

If you’re 70 and have only been applying for 20 years in AZ you missed the boat. Too bad so sad.

Instead of looking forward maybe you should look back on the great run you had from the 1960’s to the 2000’s in your hunting prime, when herd and tag #’s and odds were way better than they likely ever will be again or at least for a very long time

 

[TheGrayRider]

FYI -

“The Commission proposes to establish a Pioneer License holder one-horned ram season. The Department already offers a "Youth-only" season for persons under 18 years of age and a "CHAMP" season for persons issued a challenged hunter access/mobility permit holder under R12-4-217. The Commission has received requests to implement a similar season for persons issued a Pioneer License that would also address the one-horned ram population. Bighorn sheep management units are currently surveyed once every three years with one third of statewide management units being surveyed each year. One-horned rams were not consistently noted until 2022.

In 2022 a total of 2,438 bighorn sheep were observed on survey; of those, 713 were adult rams. Of the 713 adult rams observed, seven met the conditions of a one-horned ram (which is <1% of all the observed adult males).

Currently, rams that meet the proposed definition of a one-horned ram are classified and used for estimating the numbers of rams of various age classes in a management unit. One-horned rams identified as class III/IV rams are therefore included in the population estimates for this group which serves as the basis for permit recommendations (hunt guidelines call for harvest of 15-25% of class III/IV rams). However, one-horned rams are rarely harvested…”

 

[BBob]

"one more sheep tag"

Do we know for sure that Pioneer license holders that have previously killed an AZ ram are eligible for "one more sheep tag"? I haven't had a moment to look but I'd doubt it.

 

[CorbLand]

ok, think about this for a minute though. You’re 70 years old and have been putting in for sheep for 20 years now. You have a lifelong dream of accomplishing a sheep hunt. You look in the mirror and realize that you probably only have 2-3 years of putting in left in you before there is no way you’re getting your bag of bones up the mountain.

Wouldn’t you be pretty proud that your state has set aside a very limited number of tags for a sub par trophy so you can have that opportunity once? Maybe your whole family comes along on the hunt?

And at a younger age, if you don’t draw a sheep tag by the time you’re 70 you know there is still SOMETHING to look forward to?

Life sucks. There are plenty of things that you do everyday preparing for a future that may never come. Many lifelong dreams are shattered or left unfulfilled due to many different circumstances way more out of your control than applying for and/or drawing a tag.

I would be more proud of a state putting their foot down and quit acting like people are owed something because they have managed to breath longer than someone else.

I hope at 70 the one thing I can look forward to is going on a hunt with my grandkids, not hunting for myself.


Open up the hunt for one horned rams but make it available to everyone or just residents. Youth and Seniors are not anymore important than anyone else.

 

[Throwin Darts]

Sounds like the clash of the human old farts vs the sheep old farts.

 

[TVW]

Life isn't fair, get used to it.

This is nothing more than a (old) group of whiners that want "one more sheep tag". Same reason MT squares their bonus pts and has all the NR tags for people born in May that left. No thank you, draw like everyone else

I could just as easily say to you, "sorry you don't qualify for these tags, life isn't fair get used to it"

I'm not 100% on board with this but I can't really see a reason to be adamantly against it either.

The previous post pointing out that it would be less than 1% of the Sheep in the whole state that qualify for this makes me think they should be able to fly at it.

 

[CorbLand]

I love the idea. It gives a person who may never draw a sheep tag an opportunity to go hunt and old warrior of a ram! What’s the bad precedent it sets?

The precedent it sets is that it will trickle into other hunts as well. Elk, deer, bear, etc. It will never end once started.

We are already seeing it in Utah. Every time tag allocation gets brought up there is a group of people wanting "senior" tags for general deer season. This is coming from a group that had the chance to buy a lifetime license that guaranteed you a deer tag for life.

 

[S.Clancy]

I could just as easily say to you, "sorry you don't qualify for these tags, life isn't fair get used to it"

I'm not 100% on board with this but I can't really see a reason to be adamantly against it either.

The previous post pointing out that it would be less than 1% of the Sheep in the whole state that qualify for this makes me think they should be able to fly at it.

I am 0% on board. No one is entitled to anything in this life nor a better chance at anything because they belong to some group. I simply don't care.

Do we know for sure that Pioneer license holders that have previously killed an AZ ram are eligible for "one more sheep tag"? I haven't had a moment to look but I'd doubt it.

I was just making a point about what happened in MT with our bonus pts, but it wouldn't surprise me if shooting a sheep previously did not disqualify an applicant in this case.

 

[TVW]

The precedent it sets is that it will trickle into other hunts as well. Elk, deer, bear, etc. It will never end once started.

We are already seeing it in Utah. Every time tag allocation gets brought up there is a group of people wanting "senior" tags for general deer season. This is coming from a group that had the chance to buy a lifetime license that guaranteed you a deer tag for life.

That is a valid concern for sure, slippery slope like all things game management related.

I'm curious how many one horned rams have been harvested in the previous say 10-20 years. Like someone pointed out, maybe this would be giving the old timers a chance to shoot a ram that nobody else is gonna go after anyway.

 

[BBob]

No one is entitled to anything in this life nor a better chance at anything because they belong to some group. I simply don't care.

Then I guess we should dump the CHAMP seasons then.

FWIW we’re are talking about 7 one horn tags would become available according to recent surveys.

If you’d actually like to read the proposal it’s in this document:

https://live-azgfd-main.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/031723-Notice-of-Proposed-Rulemaking.pdf

 

[CorbLand]

Then I guess we should dump the CHAMP seasons then.

FWIW we’re are talking about 7 one horn tags would become available according to recent surveys.

If you’d actually like to read the proposal it’s in this document:

https://live-azgfd-main.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/031723-Notice-of-Proposed-Rulemaking.pdf

Is the CHAMP season its own special season and/or special tag allocation? Or does it just allow you to hunt from a vehicle during standard seasons?

There is also a massive difference between providing an opportunity for someone that has a disability and setting aside something because you managed to live long enough. Most people want to live a long life. I dont know a single person that wants a mobility disability.

 

[CorbLand]

That is a valid concern for sure, slippery slope like all things game management related.

I'm curious how many one horned rams have been harvested in the previous say 10-20 years. Like someone pointed out, maybe this would be giving the old timers a chance to shoot a ram that nobody else is gonna go after anyway.

Or you could open it up for everyone or just residents. How many people that are younger would like the chance to hunt sheep and would be willing to shoot a one horned ram? I am 32 and if a state opened up an OTC, one horned sheep tag, I would consider buying one and go as often as I could manage.

This is my problem with basing any of it on age. By allowing it, you are saying "well you have managed to live (or not live) for a certain period of time, so you deserve this..." You didnt do anything special to live for that determined amount of time. You managed to breath, eat and sleep.

And yes for the record, I am anti youth seasons as well.

 

[WiscoHoundsman]

Not a fan of setting aside the tags for someone of a certain age. The chance to hunt the rams discussed here seems like it should be for every resident.

 

[S.Clancy]

Or you could open it up for everyone or just residents. How many people that are younger would like the chance to hunt sheep and would be willing to shoot a one horned ram? I am 32 and if a state opened up an OTC, one horned sheep tag, I would consider buying one and go as often as I could manage.

This is my problem with basing any of it on age. By allowing it, you are saying "well you have managed to live (or not live) for a certain period of time, so you deserve this..." You didnt do anything special to live for that determined amount of time. You managed to breath, eat and sleep.

And yes for the record, I am anti youth seasons as well.

Not a fan of setting aside the tags for someone of a certain age. The chance to hunt the rams discussed here seems like it should be for every resident.

Yup.

 

[canyonhunter47]

I could just as easily say to you, "sorry you don't qualify for these tags, life isn't fair get used to it

You can say whatever you want but there’s zero justification for it. Almost every argument put forward for giving tags to old timers boils down to “I want it but Im probably not lucky enough to get it the usual way” which is just as valid for for literally every applicant out there.

One of the pillars of NA model that AZ claims to follow is equal opportunity for all, and reserving tags for old timers clearly flies in the face of that. Most sheep tags go to old-timers anyways since they have the points to draw.

While Champ and youth tags dont square 100% perfectly either, they aren’t significantly cutting into the allocations of a resource with ultra sky high demand like sheep. Youth tags are basically cow elk and pre rut bucks and CHAMP tags #’s are probably the portion of disabled people who would draw anyways, they are just separated into the their own week for logistics

 

[TVW]

You can say whatever you want but there’s zero justification for it. Almost every argument put forward for giving tags to old timers boils down to “I want it but Im probably not lucky enough to get it the usual way” which is just as valid for for literally every applicant out there.

One of the pillars of NA model that AZ claims to follow is equal opportunity for all, and reserving tags for old timers clearly flies in the face of that. Most sheep tags go to old-timers anyways since they have the points to draw.

While Champ and youth tags dont square 100% perfectly either, they aren’t significantly cutting into the allocations of a resource with ultra sky high demand like sheep. Youth tags are basically cow elk and pre rut bucks and CHAMP tags #’s are probably the portion of disabled people who would draw anyways, they are just separated into the their own week for logistics

Would this significantly cut into sheep tag allocations? Or would this be additional tags added?

I admittedly have not read the proposal just going off what is posted here.

 

[BBob]

Or would this be additional tags added?

From the stats I’d think they’d add about 7 broken/one horned ram tags to the total number of tags available. Obviously if it’s for Pioneer license holders it’ll be an exclusive resident draw and likely why the non-res masses aren’t for it. Even if it were to go in the general draw and not exclusively for Pioneer licenses I’d bet hardly any broken horned unit would qualify for non-res anyway with the non-res cap in place. If it’s a one tag unit non-res can’t draw it and 7 broken horned rams aren’t very many so how many units will have more than one broken horned ram available?

 

[CorbLand]

From the stats I’d think they’d add about 7 broken/one horned ram tags to the total number of tags available. Obviously if it’s for Pioneer license holders it’ll be an exclusive resident draw and likely why the non-res masses aren’t for it. Even if it were to go in the general draw and not exclusively for Pioneer licenses I’d bet hardly any broken horned unit would qualify for non-res anyway with the non-res cap in place. If it’s a one tag unit non-res can’t draw it and 7 broken horned rams aren’t very many so how many units will have more than one broken horned ram available?

I am a nonresident and can only speak for myself but I can say I would be against this regardless of my residency status and/or age.

 

[canyonhunter47]

Would this significantly cut into sheep tag allocations? Or would this be additional tags added?

It’s in addition to the current allocation but there’s no difference. I’m sure if it was 7 bighorn sheep tags going straight to AZGFD IT department employees, everyone would be rightly fired up about the loss of potential opportunity, regardless of whether they were cut from the general tag pool or an addition to existing allocations.

And 7 potential new tags accruing to a special interest group is relatively large with only 156 tags issued last year.

Also, one-horns are counted in the population estimates that drive tag allocation so it will have an indirect effect in the overall allocation eventually

 

[OMB]

ok, think about this for a minute though. You’re 70 years old and have been putting in for sheep for 20 years now. You have a lifelong dream of accomplishing a sheep hunt. You look in the mirror and realize that you probably only have 2-3 years of putting in left in you before there is no way you’re getting your bag of bones up the mountain.

Wouldn’t you be pretty proud that your state has set aside a very limited number of tags for a sub par trophy so you can have that opportunity once? Maybe your whole family comes along on the hunt?

And at a younger age, if you don’t draw a sheep tag by the time you’re 70 you know there is still SOMETHING to look forward to?

If you're 70+ years old and needing some special set aside to finally go sheep hunting, I'd ask what you did with the preceding 50 or so years. There was plenty of opportunity in that stretch.

I get that it's only a handful of tags, but it always starts with just a little bit here for this group, a little bit there for that group, and next thing you know, we're moving on to other species.

I'm sorry, I just can't get behind giving the generation that has had the greatest amount of opportunity in many facets of life one last leg up because they didn't plan well. I'm also tired of outfitter welfare, which is probably another driver of this, because presumably these 70+ years are all going to hire a guide to find said one horned rams.