Arrow inserts to allow blood flow

[NCSU_Lewis]

Lone Wolf IV / VG Arrow Inserts

– Lone Wolf Custom Gear

Saw this while watching a video on the new lone wolf tree stands from ATA. It is an insert for point and nock with venting that is supposed to allow siphoning of blood on non pass through shots. IF it works, and I think that is a huge if, do y'all think this would have more of an application on elk? But the bottom line, this seems like the epitome of a gemic that won't do anything.

 

[Blockcaver]

I am skeptical due to potential plugging on the broad head end....hair, fat, tissue etc.

 

[ezmorningrebel]

When he started talking about his arrows hitting higher with added weight I had to turn it off.

 

[Beendare]

I am skeptical due to potential plugging on the broad head end....hair, fat, tissue etc.

I would agree.

I would never use that short one....and that med length one is iffy.........one of the tenants of good arrows in concentricity of your BH [ie- perfectly straight] A longer insert gives you better BH straightness.

Now you are creating a weak spot right after the BH.....just like those old all outserts we had nothing but trouble with on the skinny shafts.

Blood siphoning?....I get plenty of blood siphoning out through the exit hole........as. 9 out of 10 shots are a pass thru with an efficient BH setup.

Myth; Busted!

 

[MattB]

That looks like a solution to a problem I have never had while weakening the structural integrity of the arrow. Easy pass.

I'd spend the money on marginally improving the probability of getting a pass through in the first place....

 

[Don Qui Puncher]

like said above it creates a weak point at the most crucial spot. I don’t see how these would be necessary at all maybe for like a 350 grain arrow shot out of a 50 lb bow with a mechanical which should never be done in the first place and only getting 6 inches of penetration. I still think it would get clogged with fat and hair and everything else, cool idea but I don’t see it. The kid and his old man are as real as it gets in the whitetail woods though and I know his dad does shoot 50 lb bows too so maybe it has something to do with that. The sticks and stand are slick but some serious coin, maybe someday....

 

[Trial153]

Silliness

 

[jmez]

Epic fail right there.

 

[Beendare]

Looking at this again, ...it just doesn't make sense.

What the heck was this guy thinking?

 

[bsnedeker]

Umm...the only way this would help the plugging issue would be if that insert was the part plugging the whole...i.e. it would mean you are talking about a hit with 2-3 inches of penetration. Good grief this is dumb!

 

[jmez]

I've figured it out. That thing is going to break off right at the shaft on anything you hit. That will leave a large hole right into the arrow shaft for the blood to flow through. Kind of like a tear away jersey!!

 

[Beendare]

I've figured it out. That thing is going to break off right at the shaft on anything you hit. That will leave a large hole right into the arrow shaft for the blood to flow through. Kind of like a tear away jersey!!

Ha!^
I must have missed the part on lone wolfs website...."Explosive charges sold separately"

 

[slatty]

Ok so as a physician I deal with blood flowing through lots of tubes. Blood clots like crazy. Often lines have to be coated with heparin and other anticoagulants to maintain flow. And here we are talking about clean, sterile blood, flowing under pressure, through a slick plastic tubing. A carbon arrow with all the little carbon microbits sticking out on the inside would clot in seconds, even if somehow the vents on that insert didn't plug with tissue. Agree with all the concerns about causing weak spots in the arrow. Hard no.

 

[jrc645]

Huge gimmick fail! Once you cut through a vital it’s gonna bleed internally. This doesn’t increase blood loss. If anything he should advertise it as a better blood tracking device. Still an epic

 

[Pilgrim]

I can get quite winded on this topic but I'll do my best to keep it short and useful while making known that I am happy and willing to answer more questions either here or via direct messaging.

I am not associated with Lone Wolf products. The IV / VG appears to be a mimic of a product with which I have been involved and use, though, for nearly four years: Blood Trax (bloodtrax.com).

I can speak to many aspects with regard to how and why this concept actually works. It can get pretty deep pretty quick as we discuss circulatory system PSI, physics and physical reactions. I can also speak to how using the Blood Trax system will positively affect arrow flight. I can also speak to durability.

I am no fool, though. I will be the first to agree that properly tuned arrows launched from a properly tuned bow are paramount and imperative. The average adult male shouldn't need to be too concerned with running a solution like this. But, the average adult male does not account for all bowhunting demographics. Also, there are always the seemingly fluke situations when a guy like Cam Hanes doesn't get a pass-through although he pulls 80lb... it happens (last fall).

If we -as bowhunters- are doing our jobs, we should be working to bring more people into our craft. Kids, especially. The presence of women in bowhunting is hopefully rising. Heck, I know a physically disabled gentleman that runs the Blood Trax system and has already seen success. He can only pull 40lb. His arrow did not pass through and his buddy said, "I've never seen so much blood!"

While this solution isn't ideal for ALL bowhunters (it doesn't need to be), it is indeed ideal for particular demographics. Basically, anyone with a shorter draw length or physically only able to pull lower pundage draw weight... this is an amazing tool for the toolbox that does VERY well to increase confidence and ability to recover animals.

All this said, we appreciate that there is another organization that has seen the value of this type of solution and has brought some competition into this niche space. However, the IV / VG design is not as structurally sound as the Blood Trax. The designer of BT worked through this process rather intensively and prototyped a design very similar to the IV / VG. It did not meet the desired degree of durability.

Regarding another concern menitoned in this thread about debris getting in and clogging... this is precisely why the Blood Trax insert is designed how it is. The holes act as a filter to keep debris out and the blood gutters still allow blood to flow.

I feel like I'm rambling now... I apologize. If you're curious to know more or have specific questions, feel free to message me here on Rokslide or find me on social media. I'm easy to find.
Later,
Casey Rash
https://www.instagram.com/casey_rash/
https://www.facebook.com/the.casey.rash

 

[Gumbo]

Unnecessary at best IMO. I subscribe to the KISS philosophy when it comes to arrows:
tip->insert->shaft->fletching->standard nock. Anything else is superfluous for my purposes, although I am considering adding a collar...and of course they have to be built well with great attention to detail and properly matched to the bow. So maybe it ain't quite so simple, but the more stuff you have on your arrow the more little inconsistencies and variances begin to add up.

 

[Beendare]

I am not associated with Lone Wolf products. The IV / VG appears to be a mimic of a product with which I have been involved and use, though, for nearly four years: Blood Trax (bloodtrax.com).

I can speak to many aspects with regard to how and why this concept actually works. It can get pretty deep pretty quick as we discuss circulatory system PSI, physics and physical reactions. I can also speak to how using the Blood Trax system will positively affect arrow flight. I can also speak to durability.

Casey, I am a small business guy....and do not like criticizing clever inventor types such as yourself.
But since you did your little self promo here....it leaves it open to examination.

You say the workings of this get, "Pretty deep"

This from your website;
At Blood Hound Hunting, we have solved this problem in many ways, sort of "killing two deer with one stone". Blood Trax does a couple of things: First, it turns your arrow into your best tracking device. If the arrow sticks in the deer, the blood will be forced through the holes in our Blood Trax insert, run inside of the arrow like a hose, and shoot out our modified nock. Strikes with limited penetration are no longer a problem. Second, Blood Trax inserts weigh 58 grains and adds desired weight to the arrow behind the broad head, allowing for a more powerful impact.

So you are saying the blood goes into the tiny holes of your outsert....continues down through the shaft..then through the tiny hole in your nok ...and out onto the ground? How long is all that^ supposed to take? The animal should be dead before all of that......

Sorry bro...I don't buy it. [good looking outserts though]

I gotta believe Matt B's comment above pretty much nailed this....

 

[Pilgrim]

Beendare - my comments aren't self-promo. I didn't invent this. A friend of mine came up with it. I don't make any money off of this and he isn't either (yet...?). I don't disagree with any of the personal reasons why most people with neither never use Blood Trax nor even try it. Like I said, I will sing the praises of properly configured and tuned equipment all day. Some people just need an extra tool in the tool box. I use it now to support my friend. If you're a small business guy, I'm sure you understand. I suffered the anguish of a non-pass through, un-recovered deer as a young bowhunter, though, and will help my children in every way avoid that.

The Blood Trax system makes what is currently a single use system into a double use system. Same equipment bowhunters already use but a different, more functional design. Some people will be interested, some won't. Some need to be interested, some don't. I'm not a salesman here, I'm just conveying the knowledge I have about his particular "thing."

To quote and answer you, "So you are saying the blood goes into the tiny holes of your outsert....continues down through the shaft..then through the tiny hole in your nok..."

Yes, that is what I'm saying. It works. Based on concept, intelligent design and field experience. As long as I've been using BT nock/insert system, I've only had pass throughs (thankfully), though plenty of adult male bowhunters experience non-pass throughs every year. The people using BT that experienced non-pass throughs reported lots of blood nearly immediately and plenty of it. In lab testing, it took .75 psi (three quarters of one pound) to push fake blood straight vertical through a 31 inch shaft. Most shafts are shorter and basically never impact an animal vertically. The average resting psi of an adult whitetail's circulatory system is 1-1.5. So, at a resting heart rate, this would work; but, what happens when the animal is shot? There's no research on that but anyone can reasonably agree that the heart rate increases and blood flows harder / faster. Not to mention, the nock end of the arrow flailing around creating centrifugal force (similar to shaking water off of your wet hands) and drawing more blood out. We thought clotting would be a problem, too. It hasn't been. Even after the animal expires, we've seen blood oozing out of the nock of a dead animal. Clotting requires oxygen and there is limited exposure through the arrow shaft.

We tried to come up with every way to prove this idea wrong so as to avoid looking like idiots. Most people want us to look like idiots and say this thing is dumb. I'll defend it because I've witnessed and been part of the long hours proving that it wouldn't work only to find that it actually does.

If you've Beendare, you know there is always something to learn. If you don't need it and don't want to buy it, then don't. That doesn't mean it isn't well thought out, that there is absolutely zero application in real life or that it doesn't work (it does work). There's no need to talk trash about it or make someone feel inferior because they need to use it. Ref: the handicapped guy I know. He is thrilled to be able to bowhunt with increased confidence of recovery.

Like I said, I am happy and willing to take PMs and phone calls to talk about this thing. Funny thing though, that's exceptionally rare. Everyone's a cynic, but no one wants to talk about it. It doesn't matter, really. I know it works and I can explain this to people all day. Some will be receptive, some won't.

It's all good man. No harm, no foul. Reach out if you want. I'd be happy to catch up on the phone sometime. I'm sure we have plenty in common outside of discussing arrow inserts.

Later,
-Casey

 

[Beendare]

Casey you are obviously a respectful and thoughtful guy....that goes a long ways with me.

I'm going to bow out as anything further on my part is just argumentative. I truly wish you the best.

 

[Pro953]

Actually I think Slatty had a great idea! We should have broadheads coated in Heperin!


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