Arrow Building - Point of diminishing returns

[D_Eightch]

So I am working with my buddy to build a heavy arrow for elk and in general, we both like the idea of flinging as much weight down range as possible.

He pulls 67# and only has a 26" draw length.

Where do some of you draw the line in losing speed for picking up energy and momentum?

Working through some weights getting into the mid 500 grain range just playing around with different setups got me wondering. Is there a point when you lose enough speed that it's not worth worrying about that heavy of arrow? He shoots the Matthews No Cam HTX

 

[Trial153]

yea there is most definitely a point of diminished returns. the issue is if it worth the trouble to find it..because in actuality it serves no practical purpose.
After awhile you just know what works.
For example an elk arrows for me means 500 grain to 550 grain arrows with coc fixed blade heads. In all honestly if its 525 or 550 its not making a bit of difference nor is the speed differnce between the two.

in the case of a short draw archer i think arrow weight is even more vital.

I would take a 500 grain arrow at 240 over a 400 grain arrow at 270 anyday for elk.

 

[D_Eightch]

yea there is most definitely a point of diminished returns. the issue is if it worth the trouble to find it..because in actuality it serves no practical purpose.
After awhile you just know what works.
For example an elk arrows for me means 500 grain to 550 grain arrows with coc fixed blade heads. In all honestly if its 525 or 550 its not making a bit of difference nor is the speed differnce between the two.

in the case of a short draw archer i think arrow weight is even more vital.

I would take a 500 grain arrow at 240 over a 400 grain arrow at 270 anyday for elk.

I was leaning more towards the heavy arrow as well and not being overly concerned with speed.

It would be interesting to test out a few different arrows and see what range the arrow really starts getting impacted and dropping..

 

[5MilesBack]

From actual testing......diminished returns as far as energy goes is well above 1000gr for any particular bow setup. But there are actual trade-offs that you still have to consider for your purposes......like trajectory. If you're in open spaces and always use a RF it doesn't really matter. But if you have to estimate distances quickly without verifying the range, it does make a difference. It also makes a difference shooting through openings in brush, timber etc. I've hit a few branches that weren't in my line of sight to the vitals.........tunnel vision shows an opening but the bigger the arc of trajectory brings more calculations into the equation. It all comes down to whatever you're comfortable with.

 

[Gerard Marcaurele]

For the whitetail hunting I do, I don’t like getting any slower than about 250fps. Anything below that and you can really limit yourself on shots (at least with jumpy Texas deer). I had a target of 270-280 FPS and built an arrow that would get me at or slightly below those numbers based on IBO speed and draw weight. I shoot a 470 grain arrow at 28”/65# somewhere in the ballpark of 275. Plenty of weight for my setup and plenty of speed to keep my sight tape relatively short.

Honestly, a lot depends on your hunting style and comfort level with having a larger pin gap.

 

[roadrunner]

With the condition of the setup you describe, an arrow with good, straight flight and a broadhead that retains its edge better on impact will do more than just saying an arrow of 'x' weight.

Otherwise, most teenagers and some ladies have no business bowhunting [elk] because their setups will never be heavy enough...

 

[D_Eightch]

With the condition of the setup you describe, an arrow with good, straight flight and a broadhead that retains its edge better on impact will do more than just saying an arrow of 'x' weight.

Otherwise, most teenagers and some ladies have no business bowhunting [elk] because their setups will never be heavy enough...

Yep I understand that all plays a very important role. I just like to dig into things deeper than I probably ever need to, which is where the question of diminishing returns came into play. If he's shooting a 600 grain arrow at 220fps vs a 500 grain arrow going 240fps etc..

Part of the reason I am wanting to build him an heavy arrow with a higher FOC. We are looking at the single bevel cut on contact type broadhead's as well.

Just looking to nerd out a bit on fine tuning a "heavy" arrow for his setup. I use heavy as a relative term

 

[OR Archer]

A No Cam at 26” would shoot about as fast as a recurve with a 500+ grain arrow. He’d really be limiting his range with that heavy of an arrow out of that Bow with a short draw. I’d recommend trying to hit an arrow weight of around 450. It’s still going to be slow out of his setup but will still offer good penetration with a single bevel head.

 

[PathFinder]

A No Cam at 26” would shoot about as fast as a recurve with a 500+ grain arrow. He’d really be limiting his range with that heavy of an arrow out of that Bow with a short draw. I’d recommend trying to hit an arrow weight of around 450. It’s still going to be slow out of his setup but will still offer good penetration with a single bevel head.

Definitely true. Nothing wrong with swapping to a bow that's somewhat faster than an atlatl. That said, his setup will kill an elk. His range will have to be spot on at those speeds, and effective range will be limited, but it will work. This year I shot a 485 grain arrow with trocar tipped Gravedigger hybrids at 262 fps. They blew through everything I poked with them (gemsbok, wildebeest, steenbuck, duiker, baboons, and a bear). If he stays between 450-500 grains with a COC head, penetration shouldn't be an issue. I'd stay with the two blade variety.

 

[D_Eightch]

Definitely true. Nothing wrong with swapping to a bow that's somewhat faster than an atlatl. That said, his setup will kill an elk. His range will have to be spot on at those speeds, and effective range will be limited, but it will work. This year I shot a 485 grain arrow with trocar tipped Gravedigger hybrids at 262 fps. They blew through everything I poked with them (gemsbok, wildebeest, steenbuck, duiker, baboons, and a bear). If he stays between 450-500 grains with a COC head, penetration shouldn't be an issue. I'd stay with the two blade variety.

Perfect, pretty much backs up my train of thought so far. Last night I sent him numbers on a 480 grain setup shooting just under 250fps (according to pinwheel software) with an FOC of 17.5%.

He was fed some un-educated opinions from some folks at an archery department telling him he needed 600+ grains for elk and giving him a bunch of generic information without truly knowing what he was working with I am thinking. We're going to meet up for beers at some point and crunch some ideas for his setup going into the new season. Hopefully he won't have to worry about reaching out and poking something and we can get him a rutted up bull at 10 yards

Thanks for the input so far!

EDIT - I did suggest getting a different bow, lol

 

[bhylton]

Perfect, pretty much backs up my train of thought so far. Last night I sent him numbers on a 480 grain setup shooting just under 250fps (according to pinwheel software) with an FOC of 17.5%.

He was fed some un-educated opinions from some folks at an archery department telling him he needed 600+ grains for elk and giving him a bunch of generic information without truly knowing what he was working with I am thinking. We're going to meet up for beers at some point and crunch some ideas for his setup going into the new season. Hopefully he won't have to worry about reaching out and poking something and we can get him a rutted up bull at 10 yards

Thanks for the input so far!

EDIT - I did suggest getting a different bow, lol

i would think the setup you mention would work. my brother in law shoots a 495gr arrow at like 248 (20ish % FOC) , and his arrow blows through the target i shoot with my recurve (recurve gets 3/4 penitration) and my recurve killed an elk no problem. his pin gaps out to 40yds were similar. That is the extent of my first hand experience on the subject however so take it with a grain of salt lol. have fun with your project

 

[cooperjd]

the short draw and slow bow are not doing him any favors. however, an arrow ~475 should be fine. my pops also shoots a slow, old mathews outback with 475gr arrows with no issues on larger animals. i like heavy arrows but i also have a 30" draw, and a heavy speed bow, so i can shoot 641gr arrows at 275 for a pretty good trajectory plus a whole lotta thump.

whatever arrow he gets just please be sure to have the bow really, really well tuned. this means fixed blade broadheads/bare shafts/field points all with the same POI (at least to 20 or 30 for the bare shafts).

a wobbling, fishtailing, porpoising arrow will lose a lot of forward momentum upon impact if it does not hit straight. you may notice much penetration difference in an animal between 450 and 475 grain arrows, but you will notice a difference between a really well tuned arrow and not. i had great results with the strickland helix single bevel in south africa. but have now switched to the Iron Will outfitters heads, as i believe they are one of the best broadheads ever built.

 

[amp713]

I just ordered the arrows I intend to play with and as long as they shoot good I intend to hunt with as well.... and they are far above what most people shoot.

I've been shooting in the 500 gr range for 10 years now, some a little under some a little over. Multiple brands and styles and FOCs. All of them performed, some flew a little less stable than other some penetrated further than others but I also switched plenty of other things not just arrow shafts.


However this year's arrows may come in closer to 700 grains completed and I can't wait to see what they do!!

Did I need the weight, not really since I've blown through everything I've shot. However what fun is never experimenting with new things?!

I may hate these arrows out of my compound and if that's the case they will be for my recurve but I figured it will be a fun experiment.

My point being, find a way to test a bunch of different set ups and shoot what feels the best. It may not be what everyone else says to shoot.