Arizona votes to ban trail cameras

[coues32]

I ve been advocating for a camera ban on public land since they started showing up in AZ with corn feeders attached 20 years ago. And I am in my mid 40s

Here is my simple minded approach, your scent,noise and visibility are not left with a surveillance device lagged to a tree.

Some hunters will and will not take a trophy they have a trail camera pic of. You throw money in the mix and a pile of glassers odds are increased with that photo. It's public land, you shouldn't beable to leave trash hanging on trees, fence post,ect..

They are not taking away your ability to hunt, might have to buy a little more gas and boots

 

[Texas97]

i dont get to really hunt on public land but i can see why they are doing it.

if this was a ban on private land cameras, then it would be a different issue.

 

[mavinwa2]

So so regarding this ban, however some action needed to be taken...I now support the ban based on experiences this past year.

I have 4 game cams, used when I find good deer or even buck evidence when scouting in the field.
The game cams occasionally confirmed my observation of game sign that a big buck or bull was using the area. So it was helpful to keep my confidence hunting the area. Used in states of WA, AZ, UT*, CO and NM*.
*-those years when I drew tags. And I will abide by the new law come 2022.

However, this happened last year. I was hunting late OTC archery in AZ. An area I've hunted off-n-on for the last 15 of the 18 years hunting AZ archery OTC.
As a non-resident hunter, paying premium licenses fees, my main concern is the implied ownership of a public area due to presence of multiple game cameras around a water source.

During mid-December archery deer 2020, I hiked just over a 1/2 mile distance to a mapped water/cattle hole from end of a jeep road. Only to find 9 game cams in vicinity. I continued onward in my hunt. On a ridgeline 1/4 mile away & above the pond, encountered another scouting hunter. No bow but revolver on this hip.
HIM: "sorry, just out here checking a game cam...have a good hunt"

Several hours later coming back to pond, circling the edges looking for deer sign on opposite side of where I walked by the pond earlier. Another guy is here now, no bow, no gun, just a day pack on. He started checking the game cams, removing SD cards, and putting in new cards on several of the game cams.

HE moves over to me and says; "hey, this water hole is being hunted by our clients"

ME: "I don't see anyone other than you & I here now"

HE: "well, there will be someone up in that tree over there come Friday, Saturday. Just letting you know, our outfit is hunting here".
Looking over where he pointed, I see a treestand positioned in the tree, chained/locked into place, steps installed, screwed into the tree. Overlooking the water source just 25 yards away.

ME: "ok, but isn't this public land?"

HE got very defensive: "well, we've been setting this place up and hunting here for years. Move on and hunt somewhere else, you've been warned..." And with that he abruptly left, hiked up the hill 200 yards, starting up his ATV and taking off. Atv that was illegal to operate here as the area was off trail, no road.

The outfitter scout didn't know my GoPro on my packs shoulder strap, was active and filming.
I sent the video to AZFG in response to their emails seeking opinions on the proposed game cam ban.

 

[JLane330]

I don't hunt AZ, but am curious, are there dates for when cameras can/can't be used, or is it year round? In other words, could a guy use them during the summer and then remove them X weeks before hunting season begins? NM has rules like this for bait.

The issue I see is that now when a game cam is discovered in the mountains, will it be removed/taken/destroyed by whoever found it simply because they are banned (even though they aren't banned for everyone)? What if it belongs to someone who doesn't hunt? How will ownership and intent be decided?

I don't feel that game cams have helped me take an animal (I've never killed an animal I had on camera). Once hunting season and other hunters rolls around, the animals change their patterns drastically. It IS fun to see what's in the area be it elk, deer, bear, mountain lion, etc. Usually it's 1000's of pics of cattle...

 

[BBob]

I don't hunt AZ, but am curious, are there dates for when cameras can/can't be used, or is it year round?

Total ban was approved. The seasonal ban was rejected.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Not a huge fan of the ban. It will be tough to enforce let alone get consistent convictions (excluding the pure idiots).

So so regarding this ban, however some action needed to be taken...I now support the ban based on experiences this past year.

I have 4 game cams, used when I find good deer or even buck evidence when scouting in the field.
The game cams occasionally confirmed my observation of game sign that a big buck or bull was using the area. So it was helpful to keep my confidence hunting the area. Used in states of WA, AZ, UT*, CO and NM*.
*-those years when I drew tags. And I will abide by the new law come 2022.

However, this happened last year. I was hunting late OTC archery in AZ. An area I've hunted off-n-on for the last 15 of the 18 years hunting AZ archery OTC.
As a non-resident hunter, paying premium licenses fees, my main concern is the implied ownership of a public area due to presence of multiple game cameras around a water source.

During mid-December archery deer 2020, I hiked just over a 1/2 mile distance to a mapped water/cattle hole from end of a jeep road. Only to find 9 game cams in vicinity. I continued onward in my hunt. On a ridgeline 1/4 mile away & above the pond, encountered another scouting hunter. No bow but revolver on this hip.
HIM: "sorry, just out here checking a game cam...have a good hunt"

Several hours later coming back to pond, circling the edges looking for deer sign on opposite side of where I walked by the pond earlier. Another guy is here now, no bow, no gun, just a day pack on. He started checking the game cams, removing SD cards, and putting in new cards on several of the game cams.

HE moves over to me and says; "hey, this water hole is being hunted by our clients"

ME: "I don't see anyone other than you & I here now"

HE: "well, there will be someone up in that tree over there come Friday, Saturday. Just letting you know, our outfit is hunting here".
Looking over where he pointed, I see a treestand positioned in the tree, chained/locked into place, steps installed, screwed into the tree. Overlooking the water source just 25 yards away.

ME: "ok, but isn't this public land?"

HE got very defensive: "well, we've been setting this place up and hunting here for years. Move on and hunt somewhere else, you've been warned..." And with that he abruptly left, hiked up the hill 200 yards, starting up his ATV and taking off. Atv that was illegal to operate here as the area was off trail, no road.

The outfitter scout didn't know my GoPro on my packs shoulder strap, was active and filming.
I sent the video to AZFG in response to their emails seeking opinions on the proposed game cam ban.

You miss the point. Your encounters were never about trail cameras. It was about "ownership" of a spot. This will continue, and may potentially get worse, with the ban of trail cameras. If you think folks are territorial when just a trail camera is there, just think how territorial they'll feel after investing scores of hours manually scouting that particular area.

The following paragraph has a much larger F U than some trail cameras on a water source. I also personally do not agree with it but I do see it playing out as well as being 100% legal.

You can legally hunt coyote 365 days a year. So to claim "ownership" in person, I can just keep someone there 24x7 as long as they have a weapon and a valid hunting license. I can rotate people to get around any "no camping" requirements. By having resources, I can effectively turn public land into pseudo-private and you cannot do jack about it. This is even more effective in areas that let you hunt various big game species from August through January.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I personally think it is going to be a major CF especially once the cases start to hit the court system.

 

[justin davis]

I don’t have a dog in the fight. But kind of crazy. I don’t use trail cams much and don’t think I have ever had them help me with hunting. But occasionally I set one or two out. they are fun to set out sometimes just to see what you get. It’s like trapping but with a camera

 

[540-Virginian]

How did you make the jump that when trail cameras were banned we must be blue? I can tell you lots of very non-blue wanted them gone.

seems like a blue state thing was all. Control to this level seemed democratic legislation to was all. If i offended my b. I post on these things when im either drunk or on the can shitting; so either way, im always spewing shit.

edit: ah now i member why i said blue! Cause WTH should they ban cams on private property. I can totally understand public, but not private.

Although that was my original thought, someone made a post after that pointed out water scarcity, so im guessing the animals roam pretty far and the waterhole ‘camspot and stalk’ hunting would impact across property lines?

 

[540-Virginian]

Honestly man, a couple of high priority areas created a shitstorm for the rest of the state. Guides really brought this issue to the forefront creating waterholes with literally 15-20 cameras on them. Water is pretty limited here in Az and then you have 15-20 guys constantly checking their cameras, a lot of times bumping deer off the tank or ruining other hunters hunts.
AZGFD also used the fair chase argument. Turns out, purchasing 25 cameras, putting them in the desert and coming back in a week or month is not really hunting. It is the lazy mans way of locating animals and patterning them.
Then comes the ownership of said area with their trailcams on it. Conflicts were becoming a little more common place with guys thinking they own said place because their cameras was there.
In the end, I think the fair chase argument was the biggest determining factor. Tough to argue that cameras do not give a hunter a significant advantage with very little effort.

Its posts like these i appreciate. Interesting explanation and makes sense now.

 

[BBob]

seems like a blue state thing was all. Control to this level seemed democratic legislation to was all. If i offended my b. I post on these things when im either drunk or on the can shitting; so either way, im always spewing shit.

edit: ah now i member why i said blue! Cause WTH should they ban cams on private property. I can totally understand public, but not private.

Although that was my original thought, someone made a post after that pointed out water scarcity, so im guessing the animals roam pretty far and the waterhole ‘camspot and stalk’ hunting would impact across property lines?

No worries, no offense taken.

If you used a trail camera that was on private and end up using that info to "take" a state owned game animal why wouldn't/shouldn't the ruling apply? It should apply in my mind. I don't think they could stop you from placing a camera on private but I do believe if you used it in the above scenario you'd be guilty of taking game while utilizing a trail camera. I don't see that as Red or Blue. There will be some fine lines but I don't think it'll be too hard to parse out.

In lots of places in AZ water is key. It's in those areas is where the biggest camera problems started. It was slowly spreading and easy to see issues were coming elsewhere.

 

[mavinwa2]

quote: HE got very defensive: "well, we've been setting this place up and hunting here for years. Move on and hunt somewhere else, you've been warned..."

Add to note; Other than initial hello & a wave, I only said 6 words to this guy.

this scouting guy was upset, big dude walked over 60 yards to confront, intimidate me. I stepped back as he approached, him yelling at me, some obscenities included. Held my bow between he and I, then stepped back again keeping 10' between us. Aside from the active GoPro, HE didn't realize that while one of my hands was holding my bow, my other hand was under hem of my jacket on opposite side, with a grip on my holstered Glock 20.
Was relieved when he turned and walked away to this ATV.

 

[greaseywater]

So so regarding this ban, however some action needed to be taken...I now support the ban based on experiences this past year.

I have 4 game cams, used when I find good deer or even buck evidence when scouting in the field.
The game cams occasionally confirmed my observation of game sign that a big buck or bull was using the area. So it was helpful to keep my confidence hunting the area. Used in states of WA, AZ, UT*, CO and NM*.
*-those years when I drew tags. And I will abide by the new law come 2022.

However, this happened last year. I was hunting late OTC archery in AZ. An area I've hunted off-n-on for the last 15 of the 18 years hunting AZ archery OTC.
As a non-resident hunter, paying premium licenses fees, my main concern is the implied ownership of a public area due to presence of multiple game cameras around a water source.

During mid-December archery deer 2020, I hiked just over a 1/2 mile distance to a mapped water/cattle hole from end of a jeep road. Only to find 9 game cams in vicinity. I continued onward in my hunt. On a ridgeline 1/4 mile away & above the pond, encountered another scouting hunter. No bow but revolver on this hip.
HIM: "sorry, just out here checking a game cam...have a good hunt"

Several hours later coming back to pond, circling the edges looking for deer sign on opposite side of where I walked by the pond earlier. Another guy is here now, no bow, no gun, just a day pack on. He started checking the game cams, removing SD cards, and putting in new cards on several of the game cams.

HE moves over to me and says; "hey, this water hole is being hunted by our clients"

ME: "I don't see anyone other than you & I here now"

HE: "well, there will be someone up in that tree over there come Friday, Saturday. Just letting you know, our outfit is hunting here".
Looking over where he pointed, I see a treestand positioned in the tree, chained/locked into place, steps installed, screwed into the tree. Overlooking the water source just 25 yards away.

ME: "ok, but isn't this public land?"

HE got very defensive: "well, we've been setting this place up and hunting here for years. Move on and hunt somewhere else, you've been warned..." And with that he abruptly left, hiked up the hill 200 yards, starting up his ATV and taking off. Atv that was illegal to operate here as the area was off trail, no road.

The outfitter scout didn't know my GoPro on my packs shoulder strap, was active and filming.
I sent the video to AZFG in response to their emails seeking opinions on the proposed game cam ban.

That sounds like a great spot to post on the internet for all to check out. It must be a honey hole if they built a tree stand there. Just warn the unsuspecting that they may encounter some push back from the locals.

 

[ChristIsKing]

Nice! Back to good old boots on the ground and eyes in the glass

I never relied on them much so I won't really miss them but I do know many where cameras are core to their methods. I'm fairly confident the big Coues kill numbers will drop. So many that have been killed over the years were first found and then profiled with cameras. Time will tell.

To EVERYONE who cares about hunting in AZ (or anywhere), you ALL should care about this whether you run cameras or not. This is government overreach by a commission board who are NOT "pro-hunter". What is next? your binos? spotting scope? pre-season scouting? wind detection? Scent control? All of those provide an advantage. Read the rule, it was written in way that could be applied to anything that gives you an advantage as a hunter. They also could have narrowly tailored to address the "alleged" problems. Also keep in mind that anti-hunting groups with big money were involved in this from day one. Make no mistake, this is an attack on our rights as hunters and it frustrates me that we don't band together as hunters to support our rights.

As for frustrations that too many "big" animals are getting killed, this is a problem with too many tags. Not game cameras.

 

[Donjuan]

What do you mean by "I was there"? The outfitters posse's (or posse's in general) aren't everywhere but on certain hunts and units they most certainly are. From the kids running the cameras to get the data, the glassers on every hill, the road blockers, etc... If you ever land a hunt where they've located a large animal you'll know it and I'll bet it will piss you off with the antics some of them will pull.

I've heard of this. The people blocking roads and trails astonishes me. How do they not get arrested for interfering with a legal hunt? Or get themselves dealt with?

 

[Life_Feeds_On_Life]

I'm torn on this. I personally only have 4 cams and rarely have them all out. I've also never killed anything I got on camera. I do really enjoy putting them out and seeing what comes along. My is that although I can technically still run cams can I be penalized for running them in a unit I hunt even if I don't kill an animal I get a pic of.

Also every spring I see multiple outfitters posting on social media literal pallets of new cams they're putting out. It's not unreasonable to expect with enough cams in an area that you could triangulate a certain animal's core area. To me that crosses the line of fair chase.

 

[ChristIsKing]

That's what I was thinking.

How do you prove the use of the camera was with the intent to aid in the using of game? And what exactly is aiding in the taking of game? Seems vague.

It may have already been figured out in case law in other states.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

I guarantee they will interpret it against the hunter. It was intentionally written broad and vague.

 

[BBob]

I guarantee they will interpret it against the hunter. It was intentionally written broad and vague.

Of course they will. The clear intention of the commission ruling is if you hunt don’t use a game camera. You may not like it but it’s not that hard. AZ has pretty much been a zero tolerance state as far as game violations go for decades. You break a rule they will send you to court and or the commission. Don’t be ignorant of or break AZ game law and you won’t have any trouble. As I said before, if you end up in front of the commission for a violation you’re likely toast, this is nothing new.

 

[ChristIsKing]

Of course they will. The clear intention of the commission ruling is if you hunt don’t use a game camera. You may not like it but it’s not that hard. AZ has pretty much been a zero tolerance state as far as game violations go for decades. You break a rule they will send you to court and or the commission. Don’t be ignorant of or break AZ game law and you won’t have any trouble. As I said before, if you end up in front of the commission for a violation you’re likely toast, this is nothing new.

I agree. Note I was responding to the comment questioning how it will be interpreted.

 

[Rob5589]

To EVERYONE who cares about hunting in AZ (or anywhere), you ALL should care about this whether you run cameras or not. This is government overreach by a commission board who are NOT "pro-hunter". What is next? your binos? spotting scope? pre-season scouting? wind detection? Scent control? All of those provide an advantage. Read the rule, it was written in way that could be applied to anything that gives you an advantage as a hunter. They also could have narrowly tailored to address the "alleged" problems. Also keep in mind that anti-hunting groups with big money were involved in this from day one. Make no mistake, this is an attack on our rights as hunters and it frustrates me that we don't band together as hunters to support our rights.

As for frustrations that too many "big" animals are getting killed, this is a problem with too many tags. Not game cameras.

The fact that so many hunters are for this ban demonstrates it isn't all or nothing. As technology advances there are going to be limits put in place, especially when people cannot regulate themselves.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Way too many grey areas.

* Can you run cameras for fun and still hunt waterfowl, quail, and dove in the same unit(s)?
* Is it ok to run cameras in one unit but hunt in another? What about if the cameras literally are just on the other side of the unit's border?
* If you have a statewide license such as OTC bear or mountain lion, does that mean that you cannot run cameras anywhere there is a season even if not hunting there? What about if you have a Commissioner's tag which opens up areas where there are no season?
* Are you running afoul if someone posts a photo on social media that was taken by a trail camera if you hunt that unit and happen to see it? Any difference if someone texts you a photo of the monster elk but you don't have an elk tag but hunt bear in that unit?

It is very humorous that many folks support no cameras on water as that is too much a disruption to wildlife. But it is ok for the a sizable percentage of the same folks to sit water all day (ex: archery hunters) which can and will have a much larger impact on wildlife. They tend to get even more wary when they notice something new (ex: ground blind) and may very well bolt when they wind you.

With that said, I'll take a wait and see approach on the actual legal front before deciding to continue to run cameras for enjoyment. I do like seeing what shows up even though I am not hunting those species in that unit(s). But that enjoyment pales in comparison to hunting.