Are Trap Bar Deadlifts the way to go?

[307]

If you deadlift a barbell correctly, there is no substantial risk. Also, if you look at the available injury data, as much shifty form that exists out there In The world including the untold thousands of Crossfitters bouncing deadlifts off the floor, the lack of understanding about bracing/valsalva technique or placing the back into extension, there are actually surprisingly few deadlift injuries at weights of less than 600# for men. I’m not sure what that number is for women, but very few men will ever deadlift 600# anyway.

Also, again, the trap bar is inferior at training the posterior chain. Given that is arguably the most important and practical chain of muscles in the body, that fact alone makes the trap bar inferior. The unwillingness to learn and teach proper technique is a fairly poor excuse to justify the inferior nature of the trap bar as it relates to the benefits of the barbell deadlift. Especially since the deadlift is probably the easiest barbell lift to learn and to teach.

You are incorrect about bb dl not producing injuries.

You can train posterior chain just fine with a trap bar, there are multiple ways to move with it, including a pure hinge if so desired.

Bb deadlift is extremely technical to do properly, and mistakes can be subtle but very costly.

Not worth the risk unless in a barbell sport.

 

[Poser]

You are incorrect about bb dl not producing injuries.

You can train posterior chain just fine with a trap bar, there are multiple ways to move with it, including a pure hinge if so desired.

Bb deadlift is extremely technical to do properly, and mistakes can be subtle but very costly.

Not worth the risk unless in a barbell sport.

There are an endless amount of studies on injuries as they relate to strength training. I’m not sure what you are basing your conclusions on, but I disagree strongly with them. The trap bar training the posterior chain “just fine” is a meaningless statement. The trap bar is an inferior movement with regards to the conventional deadlift because it does not stress the posterior chain as significantly and it lacks the shearing effect, which is what makes the back stronger. The trap bar does emphasize the quads more, but in an inferior manner to the Backsquat because it lacks the range of motion. It’s not as good as a conventional deadlift for making the back stronger and not as good as the Backsquat for making the quads stronger. It’s an inferior substitute for either.

Injuries among weightlifters and powerlifters: a systematic review | British Journal of Sports Medicine

 

[ScoutOut]

It doesn't "incorporate different muscles". LOL!
Because the load moves through your centerline it loads your quads more than a straight bar deadlift variation does.

Hey Coach don't take my word for it here is what Stronger by Science has to say:
While both essentially train the hinge pattern, peak spine and hip moments tend to be a bit larger for the barbell deadlift than the trap bar deadlift, while the peak knee moment tends to be larger for the trap bar deadlift.

And, while both elicit similar degrees of muscle activation in the muscle groups they train, quad activation tends to be a bit higher for the trap bar deadlift, while hamstrings and spinal erector activation tend to be a bit higher for the conventional deadlift.
LOL!

 

[Coach Chris]

Hey Coach don't take my word for it here is what Stronger by Science has to say:
While both essentially train the hinge pattern, peak spine and hip moments tend to be a bit larger for the barbell deadlift than the trap bar deadlift, while the peak knee moment tends to be larger for the trap bar deadlift.

And, while both elicit similar degrees of muscle activation in the muscle groups they train, quad activation tends to be a bit higher for the trap bar deadlift, while hamstrings and spinal erector activation tend to be a bit higher for the conventional deadlift.
LOL!

That's a more thorough explanation of what I said.

 

[ScoutOut]

Rgr that Coach. Just a different interpretation I guess. Thanks.

 

[307]

Spend a couple decades in a PT, chiro, sports med, or neurosurgeons office evaluating and treating athletes. That's where I form my opinions, from the hundreds of cases I've personally worked with. Conventional dl is too risky with little or no reward beyond other hinge exercises.

The barbell is an arbitrary implement.

Your posted research would fail to capture the multitude of spinal injuries that non weightlifters sustain while weight training. That's what we are talking about here, not injury rates among expert weightlifters and powerlifters. That study misses the point entirely.

 

[Poser]

Spend a couple decades in a PT, chiro, sports med, or neurosurgeons office evaluating and treating athletes. That's where I form my opinions, from the hundreds of cases I've personally worked with. Conventional dl is too risky with little or no reward beyond other hinge exercises.

The barbell is an arbitrary implement.

Your posted research would fail to capture the multitude of spinal injuries that non weightlifters sustain while weight training. That's what we are talking about here, not injury rates among expert weightlifters and powerlifters. That study misses the point entirely.

And yet I am entirely unconvinced by your argument. The barbell is not a arbitrary implement. Far from it, since strength is a general adaptation and the barbell allows for the most weight to be moved (creating the most amount of stress), employing the most amount of muscle muscle over an effective range of motion in a way that can be loaded in a progressive, linear means, it’s not arbitrary, it is in fact a logical implement with a general purpose. A rock is arbitrary. And if you are going to make the case that a barbell is an arbitrary implement, then you have to also admit that The trap bar is an arbitrary implement. And then, for that matter, what isn’t an arbitrary implement.

Agree to disagree, BUT, I will keep advocating the superiority of the basic barbell strength training and any risk/reward tradeoff is worth it due to the end result of having stronger body.

 

[307]

Then explain why elite S&C coaches are moving away from a conventional dl in droves. This is especially true in the professional sports arena.

Risk:Reward

Some amateur hack out there thinks bb backsquats on a bosu are safe and "superior" but that doesn't make it true.

 

[Poser]

Then explain why elite S&C coaches are moving away from a conventional dl in droves. This is especially true in the professional sports arena.

Risk:Reward

Some amateur hack out there thinks bb backsquats on a bosu are safe and "superior" but that doesn't make it true.

I’m sure Coach Chris can offer an perspective on elite S&C coaches, but, from where I sit:

Overall, there has been a return to basic barbell training in recent years. I’d argue Barbell training is more popular in 2020 than it ever has been at any point In History. So there’s that.

At the “elite” level, I couldn’t say that barbell training is any more or less popular than it ever has been. Elite sprinters deadlift. Period. A stronger back means that a runner can transfer more power from their upper body into their lower body. I’d dare say you won’t find a modern sprinting record that did not employ deadlifts in the training and, if you do, it is a rare exception. Football players power clean and probably always will. A power clean involves a deadlift, so even if they aren’t “deadlifting”, they are doing deadlifts when they power clean. So, you probably won’t find an elite S&C football coach who doesn’t at least employ the deadlift in the power clean capacity. (And you ain’t gonna power Cleans that trap bar). I can’t explain what and why elite S&C coaches do what they do, but I also know that they work with the best athletes that our society can produce.

When it comes to your average person: you, me, your grandmother, or whoever else, I know that we are all going to benefit from having a stronger back and the deadlift is the most logical and efficient way to make the back stronger, so we all benefit from learning how to deadlift and training it properly. Any inferior movement pattern, be it a trap bar or a pile of rocks, is not going to produce the same benefit as efficiently as the conventional deadlift because: It’s not as stressful, it lacks the shearing effect, it lacks the range of motion or it lacks the ability to be progressively loaded. If you can properly deadlift 275# for a few reps, you aren’t going to hurt your back picking up a 30# awkward stone. If grandma can properly deadlift 65#, she’s probably not going to throw her back out sweeping the porch. And while you may have very well seen some deadlift associated injuries over the years due to poor form, you’ve seen way more injuries associated with weak spinal erectors. A strong back is a healthy back. A strong back meets trauma vs. a weak back meets trauma: Which one stands a better chance?

In terms of people not learning the technique, well, most reasonable people will take the time to learn how to ski before they go dropping in off the top of a cornice (and they will learn to ski by actually skiing). Most reasonable people will learn to ride a bike before they go charging down the mountain on a bike (and they’ll learn how to ride a bike by riding a bike). You get where I’m going.... if you are a reasonable person, you’ll take the time to learn how to deadlift before you attempt to do something that will hurt you. There’s probably not a way I could hurt my back picking 135# up off the floor, but someone not strong enough to pick up 135# could easily hurt their back with that same weight. If I can’t hurt my back with 135# but someone else can, am I to believe that is the barbells fault?

If your back is in fact strong enough for the job and you understand how to use your leverages properly, and you follow a sensible training program, you’re not going to hurt your back deadlifting. With the exception of extreme examples, any injuries associated with deadlifting likely fall outside of that criteria and that is not the fault of the deadlift itself, rather it is user error (or coaching error).

 

[JP7]

Didn’t read all the posts but......why not both?


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[*zap*]

Injuries are mostly caused by people putting priority on weight and not proper form. JMO.

 

[307]

I'm on a phone so I'll be much less verbose.

Power cleans are done from the hang, not from the floor. Why? To simplify the lift and eliminate the injury potential that comes from full power cleans...

Your belief that back pain is primarily due to weakness is simply false. It's also refuted by the astronomically high rates of chronic back pain in competitive powerlifters.

When risk is taken into account, as it always should be when selecting exercises, the barbell deadlift is very frequently omitted from training plans. It may produce higher peak loads than a tb dl but you seem to be missing the point that the goal should not be maximizing strength without consideration of other variables. Injury prevention in the weight room is far, far more important than developing max strength. It's not even a discussion, and the bb dl is far too risky for most athletes.

 

[307]

We haven't even gotten into the discussion of hip structure and how that affects people's ability to pull from a standard deadlift height...

 

[LostArra]

Deadlift with a barbell is pretty darn easy to learn.
Getting hurt is due to greed no matter the shape of the bar. ( agreeing with zap)

 

[GLB]

I’m in a similar situation do to injury. I don’t have a trap bar but I use dumbbells and that seems to work for me. However you will be limited on heavy weights with the dumbbells.

 

[Coach Chris]

Then explain why elite S&C coaches are moving away from a conventional dl in droves. This is especially true in the professional sports arena.

This is simply not true.
There are some coaches who have biases for or against particular tools or exercises.
Truly high level coaches are only going to be concerned with getting the absolute best performance possible out of their athletes with the absolute minimal amount of effort and time invested. They're going to choose the best tools and exercises possible to accomplish this goal. No matter what they may be.
I have a pro enduro mountain bike racer who due to his physiology can only perform sumo deadlift and barbell reverse lunges safely. Squats, conventional and trap bar deadlifts are not options.

 

[*zap*]

How would having long legs/short torso impact these type excercise's?

 

[Poser]

I'm on a phone so I'll be much less verbose.

Power cleans are done from the hang, not from the floor. Why? To simplify the lift and eliminate the injury potential that comes from full power cleans...

Your belief that back pain is primarily due to weakness is simply false. It's also refuted by the astronomically high rates of chronic back pain in competitive powerlifters.

When risk is taken into account, as it always should be when selecting exercises, the barbell deadlift is very frequently omitted from training plans. It may produce higher peak loads than a tb dl but you seem to be missing the point that the goal should not be maximizing strength without consideration of other variables. Injury prevention in the weight room is far, far more important than developing max strength. It's not even a discussion, and the bb dl is far too risky for most athletes.

A hang power clean is an accessory to the power clean. It’s a way to focus on the 2nd pull of the clean. Sure, you can never do a full power clean if you wish to avoid the pull from the floor. You’re going to need to use blocks though because otherwise, you’re still going to have to pick that bar up from the floor and perform a deadlift. For that matter, you’ll perform a deadlift anytime you pick a kettlebell up off the floor. You’ll probably deadlift picking up a game bag full of venison. If the trap bar is laying on the floor and you want to use, you may have to “deadlift” it as well

The other thing about power cleans is that not very many people will power clean more than around 60% of their deadlift. With that in mind, the pull from the floor is just not that heavy and should Not be heavy enough to inflict injury unto itself. If you have a 300# deadlift, you’re not going to hurt yourself pulling 180# off the floor. The power clean injuries I have seen over the years tend to involve elbows and wrist. I did once see a Crossfitter go to the ER with a neck injury.

As far as training plans not including the deadlift, I’m sure I can name quite a significant amount of plans that do in fact include the deadlift and have been done for years if by tens of thousands of trainees. Especially if you consider popular programs such as Wendler 5-3-1, Texas Method, Nebraska Method, HLM, Novice Linear Progression, variations of 5x5 programs.... it could go on a long ways. And I’m sure you can name of a bunch of programs that don’t use the deadlift as well but I do not see any evidence of the deadlift being in decline. To the contrary:

Again, I will hypothesize that deadlifting is more popular at this moment in time than at any other time in history. There are more people deadlifting in 2020 than there were in 2000, 1990, 1980 or 1970. You seem to keep implying that it is trending down, when I will maintain that it is trending upwards in popularity. I think anyone who has been going to gyms for 20+ years will agree. How much more common is it to find a gym with a chalk bowl and a platform than it was 20 years ago? 30 years ago? You can walk into a fancy suburban fitness center these days and see 10+ platforms lined up with calibrated weights and even fancy deadlift specific bars. I live in a town of 20,000 people and we have 8 gyms (eight!) with platforms and bumper plates. Even the freakin’ obstacle course/ jungle gym has a deadlift setup. I’ve been going to gyms since 1990 and it’s never been more accommodating to deadlift than in 2020. You can’t convince me that it’s trending downwards.

And, no, it’s not “too risky” when done correctly and when incorrect execution does lead to injury, it is the fault of the user not an inherent flaw of the movement pattern.

 

[Maverick1]

I like to exercise. It is enjoyable.

 

[*zap*]

Deadlift with poor form has become very popular.....