Are Thermal Devices Ethical For Predawn Scouting and Hiking?

[TheGDog]

Kinda chaps my hide that anybody other than myself gets to decide for myself what's fair and unfair in terms of legal methods of take, and tactics which can be legally used or not.

As much as I might secretly feel a twinge of envy in observing somebody else making use of some wowsers piece of tech they've chosen to allocate their resources to... I don't begrudge them being able to and allowed to to do that though. I had every right as well to elect to buy that same tech, and simply just haven't. Either because my budget just flat-out can't afford it... or simply because I've prioritized other things above it so far. But that doesn't mean I don't potentially not want the opportunity to have that as a choice when my financial situation changes, like whenever the heck it'll be that my last mortgage payment gets sent in the future. I'd love to then be able to elect to buy some of these cool products and enjoy them a little bit while I still physically can. Some of these devices, their cost to entry can be very prohibitive so lotta that kinda stuff for some of us had to wait a good number of years into our lives before enough freed up spending money could happen.

In dang near just about every other facet of our lives... we continuosly celebrate technological advancements. Can't wait for them to arrive. Yet somehow... in hunting... I dunno... when it happens there.. since you're telling us we can't attempt to bait for them, so we literally have to find them like a needle in a haystack, a very large haystack where I'm talking about, with not a lot of "needles" in it. It's like, those folks need all the help they can get, because what you don't realize is how deeply in they likely need to go, even before that piece of tech wizardry can even begin to become useful. Not to mention the fact that in a lotta places there's no running water for a guy to refill from, so even with the ability to acquire whatever cool tech advancement you want... you still gotta hoof that isht in there though. And if you already gotta hump in 6L of fluids even before you get to your gear, you start reeeeeeally looking long and hard at each piece of gear you think about putting in your pack. So I think the thought of over-abusing some piece of tech is just not as likely out here where I'm at, as I think they believe it could be.

 

[TheGDog]

If he/she got out there even earlier than we did, they have the right to enjoy their hunt on their spot.

THANK YOU!!! YES!!! And that's me too, that dude who makes damn well sure he gets out there early enough to be setup and quite before legal shooting light!

I think it's been.... maybe only two times total... I've had another hunter make the turn-in thinking they were about to plop down on the spot I personally manicured and created and pruned shooting lanes thru... starting from nothing by snipping thru and clearing a space within the Poison Oak all around the base of that Big Oak tree.. only to startle at observing I was already there. Thankfully they've always put up their backing-away "Whoa.. Sorry Dude, Gotcha, Your Spot.. Backing way now.." kinda hand gestures while remaining quiet.

Hmmph. and it's actually worked well for me I think. As I think twice the bucks came into the scene from the direction they'd exited it from. So I think a few times they must have clumsily spooked em back over my way since I was settled and silent starting so very early in the dark. Because of the silence, they'd know I "wasn't there" sine it's been quite so long, as long as their noses didn't catch a whiff of me. But I purposefully backed up enough away from where they'd come in from so the wind wouldn't carry it to them.

Shame to, because I know somebody is making use of that spot right now, since this season I opted for a new different zone I'd never been to before.

 

[GoProTiger]

We have a thermal drone and several thermal scopes for pig hunting. I wouldn’t use them to scout for deer or out west game. I personally feel it takes the fair chase out of it.

 

[Steves29]

We have a thermal drone and several thermal scopes for pig hunting. I wouldn’t use them to scout for deer or out west game. I personally feel it takes the fair chase out of it.

Agreed. That's awesome that y'all are already using those drones; how much of an advantage are they? I hunt hogs with thermal/night vision here in TX as well and I've been dying to get my hands on one of those

 

[EastMT]

I’d like one for coyotes, but not for big game, not my cup of tea.

As a side note, I wouldn’t be upset if they banned optics for big game, more people would learn how to hunt instead of shoot , love peep sights

 

[GoProTiger]

Agreed. That's awesome that y'all are already using those drones; how much of an advantage are they? I hunt hogs with thermal/night vision here in TX as well and I've been dying to get my hands on one of those

The drone is incredible. We hunt over 120k+ acres of sugarcane and soybeans and when the cane is grown it’s impossible to see the pigs in there without the drone. The drone also has a spotlight on it so we find them and then use it to push the pigs out of the cane to us.

 

[Jardo]

I draw the line at devices that use a power source to boost senses to find game above what they are capable of naturally while hunting. While this might sound like a post hoc justification, I see a big difference between manipulating ambient light (like a spotting scope) and electronically adding to it.

By that measure IR and night vision are out, while binos, spotting scopes, etc. are fine (hearing aids and similar devices that purely restorative are fine to me too).

Illuminated reticles/pins and rangefinders typically do use batteries, but I see that as different since they don’t really give your natural eyesight a boost in the same way an IR would. Illum for pins and reticles helps you see your aiming device better, not the animal. Rangefinders don’t really boost your vision in the same way either, and they help make a better shot on game you already found, which to me is different from helping finding new game

I’d have to give more thought to preseason scouting and recovery. Thermals would definitely help but finding an before season while scouting doesn’t guarantee the animal will be in the same spot months later. Likewise, avoiding an animal going to waste is a pretty good ethical argument in it’s favor unless it leads to users using it as a crutch for marginal shots.

so many contradictions in this post. you have a line that is somewhat mainstream but you’re all over the place with this one.


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[Jardo]

Kinda chaps my hide that anybody other than myself gets to decide for myself what's fair and unfair in terms of legal methods of take, and tactics which can be legally used or not.

As much as I might secretly feel a twinge of envy in observing somebody else making use of some wowsers piece of tech they've chosen to allocate their resources to... I don't begrudge them being able to and allowed to to do that though. I had every right as well to elect to buy that same tech, and simply just haven't. Either because my budget just flat-out can't afford it... or simply because I've prioritized other things above it so far. But that doesn't mean I don't potentially not want the opportunity to have that as a choice when my financial situation changes, like whenever the heck it'll be that my last mortgage payment gets sent in the future. I'd love to then be able to elect to buy some of these cool products and enjoy them a little bit while I still physically can. Some of these devices, their cost to entry can be very prohibitive so lotta that kinda stuff for some of us had to wait a good number of years into our lives before enough freed up spending money could happen.

In dang near just about every other facet of our lives... we continuosly celebrate technological advancements. Can't wait for them to arrive. Yet somehow... in hunting... I dunno... when it happens there.. since you're telling us we can't attempt to bait for them, so we literally have to find them like a needle in a haystack, a very large haystack where I'm talking about, with not a lot of "needles" in it. It's like, those folks need all the help they can get, because what you don't realize is how deeply in they likely need to go, even before that piece of tech wizardry can even begin to become useful. Not to mention the fact that in a lotta places there's no running water for a guy to refill from, so even with the ability to acquire whatever cool tech advancement you want... you still gotta hoof that isht in there though. And if you already gotta hump in 6L of fluids even before you get to your gear, you start reeeeeeally looking long and hard at each piece of gear you think about putting in your pack. So I think the thought of over-abusing some piece of tech is just not as likely out here where I'm at, as I think they believe it could be.

this is true.


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[Jardo]

ok, so good comments here. lots of opinions about what is ethical. i suspect most of you that hike in before light to get set up use a red or green light. why is that ethical and not a thermal?


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[TheGDog]

ok, so good comments here. lots of opinions about what is ethical. i suspect most of you that hike in before light to get set up use a red or green light. why is that ethical and not a thermal?

Why? It's virtually the same concept, but since it has virtually no cost prohibitive bar to entry... nobody gives a sh*t if you elect to employ it. Because they all know they can too. So because of that, there's no Haterade should you choose to use it. But... since thermal requires bank to acquire, the moment you can do that for yourself, you're gonna draw out a whole buncha Haterade, the ol' green-eyed monster... envy.

And why is that? Because they haven't learned the first rule of Pimpin'... don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[4fletch]

Is using a thermal monocular while hiking into your hunting area before the sun is up ethical or should we shun this technology and behavior. I am not asking if shooting before it’s light is ethical. most agree it is not. I am asking for comments about using thermals before it’s light while hiking before the sun is up.

I had an experience this year that made me realize hunters are not always ready for new technology and i want to see what others think about the advancements in optics and weapon technology that is changing the way we hunt.

let’s hear some thoughts!


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"Ethical". Our ancestors fished using firelight, hunted at night, groups pushed deer through man made funnels while several others shot at them. Used snares, traps and pitfalls. Pushed herds of Bison off cliffs. Hunted over/with bait. "Ethical" (in terms of hunting laws) is something made up to make hunting harder and please the anti hunters when numbers were down. What separated us (man) was our ability to take advantage of our thumb, and use our minds. A lot of hunting and fishing/game laws are just a how to book of how our ancestors were so successful.
Unethical? Is killing what you do not eat or use. Killing to the point of endangering the population. Wounding animals or doing things to make them suffer. (Not using your superior mind to kill them in the quickest way using the tools you have).
If you have the ability to see at night or see heated objects roll with it. I do not set my moral compass by what a group of people in the 60s 70s and 80s decided was "ethical".

 

[CHAD PEZZLE]

ok, so good comments here. lots of opinions about what is ethical. i suspect most of you that hike in before light to get set up use a red or green light. why is that ethical and not a thermal?


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How are those two even remotely comparable. I use a red or green light because it's better for my eyes and doesn't cast a beam near as far as a white light.

Getting in before sunrise and using a dim light to hike into an area quietly and hopefully undetected is a far cry from scanning miles of hill sides and picking up heat signatures of animals that would be impossible to see is not a fair comparison.

Although using quality thermal is very cost prohibitive for most people, it most definitely is in a whole different league than a headlamp regardless of cost as far as the advantages it gives to a hunter.

 

[jmez]

I'd like to see the full and true gear lists of the ethics police.

Cognitive ability makes hunting unethical. Degrees of ethics are amusing. Hunting game with non electronic, modern items, and saying you can't take away the animals defenses, that's rich. Every single thing we take with us lessens the animals defenses.

Don't agree, sign up for Naked and Afraid, or Alone. Take 0 items with you. Kill a bunch of shit, be fat happy and well fed.

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[Mtnboy]

Why? It's virtually the same concept, but since it has virtually no cost prohibitive bar to entry... nobody gives a sh*t if you elect to employ it. Because they all know they can too. So because of that, there's no Haterade should you choose to use it. But... since thermal requires bank to acquire, the moment you can do that for yourself, you're gonna draw out a whole buncha Haterade, the ol' green-eyed monster... envy.

And why is that? Because they haven't learned the first rule of Pimpin'... don't hate the player, hate the game.

Keep telling yourself whatever you need to tell yourself bud.

Some of us just understand the line has to be drawn somewhere.....would you be cool with using "heat seeking" bullets or arrows too?

Hunting is supposed to be hard and a challenge, the point of hunting is not to keep creating technology so that everyone can be successful without putting in effort.

If you need to use a thermal to big game hunt....you suck at hunting. Period.

 

[TheGDog]

Hunting is supposed to be hard and a challenge, the point of hunting is not to keep creating technology so that everyone can be successful without putting in effort.

As I stated above, even with the neatest tech, you still have to put in the work to find where they are at and get your body and your weapon of choice close enough to make it happen. Which I'm saying, out here anyways where ya gotta hoof it around in public lands trying to get away from everybody else... there's only soo much stuff you can take with you. So even if you have a real cool toy to use, you're going to have to think long and hard about whether it's worth it to you to throw it in the pack, worth the extra weight. Typically it'll mean something else has to be ejected.

At least that's the way it is for some of us peasants who don't own tracts of rural land bordering NF's. Or ya know have vineyards where all year long we allow the game animals to come in and feel "safe" on our private land, pfft.

 

[riversidejeep]

I'm going off the main focus of the topic ( kind of). Good old days we ran around with the trusty model 94 30-30, open sights and whacked deer at 100 yards. There was not many people and lots of game. Then around WW-2 we start with scopes and high power rifles (30-06 model 70's etc.) and now the deer are fair game at 300 yards along with more folks hunting and not as much game. A few guys really dig archery and go out with a long bow or recurve and a couple get deer at 20 yards. 70's - 80's everyone is now totting around a 7mm mag and a 3-9 Leupold . Deer and elk are tipping over at 500 yards , the archery guys have the Holy Grail compound bows and their deer aren't safe within 45 yards now. More people in the field, less game, less habitat. Fast forward 2021 and now Billy Bob has a 6.5-300 Weatherby Mag with a 25 power scope that talks to his 4 mile range finder and lights up a dot to put on the bucks gizzard at 850 yards. The archery guy is telling everyone how he snuck up on this 200 inch giant and got within 90 yards , ranged him and tripped the release on his carbon fiber expando tipped arrow and cut its heart off. The muzzle loader guys are using primers, fake black powder, saboted bullets bragging on the 200 yard shot. Now hunting season is a sea of orange hats and most of everyone's winter range is taken up by a Komifornia asshole that moved to get away and built a mini ranchette on 5 acres with a pond out front. Point is that at sometime we need to look at the big picture and realize that its not in our best interest to keep advancing with the hunting gear ( thermal for this instance), we need to go on the hunt for the hunt, not on the hunt for the kill. Sorry , I just had to vent.

 

[4fletch]

I'm going off the main focus of the topic ( kind of). Good old days we ran around with the trusty model 94 30-30, open sights and whacked deer at 100 yards. There was not many people and lots of game. Then around WW-2 we start with scopes and high power rifles (30-06 model 70's etc.) and now the deer are fair game at 300 yards along with more folks hunting and not as much game. A few guys really dig archery and go out with a long bow or recurve and a couple get deer at 20 yards. 70's - 80's everyone is now totting around a 7mm mag and a 3-9 Leupold . Deer and elk are tipping over at 500 yards , the archery guys have the Holy Grail compound bows and their deer aren't safe within 45 yards now. More people in the field, less game, less habitat. Fast forward 2021 and now Billy Bob has a 6.5-300 Weatherby Mag with a 25 power scope that talks to his 4 mile range finder and lights up a dot to put on the bucks gizzard at 850 yards. The archery guy is telling everyone how he snuck up on this 200 inch giant and got within 90 yards , ranged him and tripped the release on his carbon fiber expando tipped arrow and cut its heart off. The muzzle loader guys are using primers, fake black powder, saboted bullets bragging on the 200 yard shot. Now hunting season is a sea of orange hats and most of everyone's winter range is taken up by a Komifornia asshole that moved to get away and built a mini ranchette on 5 acres with a pond out front. Point is that at sometime we need to look at the big picture and realize that its not in our best interest to keep advancing with the hunting gear ( thermal for this instance), we need to go on the hunt for the hunt, not on the hunt for the kill. Sorry , I just had to vent.

They are begging people to kill deer here. And they are already complaining we did not kill enough does or moose. While i understand your point, that same tech has advanced the way we conserve. Its not guess work anymore. They can issue a specific amount of tags based on a known percentage of them that will be filled and adjust fire by year and conditions. Our fish and game uses hunters and game cameras to get such an accurate picture of herd numbers its unreal. (Along with other things).
I would say cautiously if you have a population problem its prob on your local fish and game or state gov not trying at all at this point. Like fish being pumped into ponds every year, there is a way.

 

[CHAD PEZZLE]

As I stated above, even with the neatest tech, you still have to put in the work to find where they are at and get your body and your weapon of choice close enough to make it happen. Which I'm saying, out here anyways where ya gotta hoof it around in public lands trying to get away from everybody else... there's only soo much stuff you can take with you. So even if you have a real cool toy to use, you're going to have to think long and hard about whether it's worth it to you to throw it in the pack, worth the extra weight. Typically it'll mean something else has to be ejected.

At least that's the way it is for some of us peasants who don't own tracts of rural land bordering NF's. Or ya know have vineyards where all year long we allow the game animals to come in and feel "safe" on our private land, pfft.

So you're saying that hunting in California is already too hard due to poor management and low deer densities that we should make it even easier to kill what few deer we have left?

Thermal absolutely gives a tremendous advantage, if it didn't, guys using it to kill hogs and whatever else they can where legal, wouldn't use it.

Adding a thermal to ones pack isn't going to be the straw that breaks a hunters back, especially if it means they can find deer quickly and easily. Some hunters want an easy button, a little extra weight isn't going to keep them from packing it, especially if means killing a monster buck so they can brag about how great of a hunter they are on social media.

Thermal gives a huge advantage, I think where animal densities are high and depredation is necessary it's a great tool for any kind of game.

I think making it legal for big game hunting, especially in states or areas where animal densities are already low, is going to have a negative impact on that population and eventually our opportunity as hunters.

 

[TheGDog]

So you're saying that hunting in California is already too hard due to poor management and low deer densities that we should make it even easier to kill what few deer we have left?

Yes... why not? They do deer population surveys right? If there is an issue, they simply reduce number of tags for whichever zone. Which I doubt would ever need to happen as a result of now allowing a piece of tech previously not allowed, for all the same reasons I already rattled off.

Just because they then might become allowed.. doesn't mean YOU have to elect to use them. You can still elect to show everybody how "macho" you are and elect NOT to use them. That's certainly your perogative. Me personally? "Work smart, not hard." has served me well for 5 decades.

 

[TheGDog]

we need to go on the hunt for the hunt, not on the hunt for the kill. Sorry , I just had to vent.

Guess I'm just more logic driven then.

I go on the hunt for the kill. I put up with and don't mind all the BS this pursuit puts me thru because I enjoy the elation I feel when I finally manage to take game. It very much affects my outlook negatively when the goal is not achieved. Leading to me doubling-down on my efforts.

But... I'm "Adult onset" here starting end of 2014. Only 3 Mule Deer to my name so far. Farthest 40yd. One of those was bow at 25yds (and that was with never even owning a bow before). So it's not like I'm a stranger to putting in the work, and/or being patient until I get presented with a good opportunity.

That being said... I do have quite a bit of injury and it does cause me significant pain soreness by end of each outing. Some more than others.

While I'm out there, I'm sure any Mosquito that sucks my blood starts thinking "Hey! All my sore joints are feeling much better now!" from all the isht I gotta take NSAID and Co-Ox inhibitor and Opiate wise.

So therefore, if I can allocate resources to get me to the goal an nTh faster. That's less pain I'll have to subject myself to and experience. Less damage, less deterioration in the long term. Which I'd imagine, some of you being likely more what would be considered "Normal healthy" these types of long range thoughts about it would naturally not occur to you.