Are Thermal Devices Ethical For Predawn Scouting and Hiking?

[Jardo]

Try and buy one in CA...I did. https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-468.html

thermals are legal. read the code. it’s talking about night vision that uses an IR illuminator to project a beam. thermals do not detect ir light. they detect changes in temperature.

ignorance about what a thermal is and is not is astonishing.


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[Jardo]

It doesn’t make sense if you think more broadly about how the increased use of technology increased success rates can impact opportunity to a hunt a limited resource.

doesn’t change the management of the herd. if harvest rates go up, tag allotments go down. in the future, just drawing a tag will guarantee your success because technology will have made it so you can hunt from your couch…


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[mfllood3800]

doesn’t change the management of the herd. if harvest rates go up, tag allotments go down. in the future, just drawing a tag will guarantee your success because technology will have made it so you can hunt from your couch…


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LOL
That's what most hunters are doing now. Watching BRO, Hushin, Meat eater, Solo Hunter etc.

Then they think, "Hey I can do this" Go buy $3000 worth of camo and gear, head out West with a bow tuned for field points by the pro shop, and live their fantasy for 2 days. Then head to hotel room and watch from their couch others doing what in their minds, they believe they could still do.

 

[SWOHTR]

thermals are legal. read the code. it’s talking about night vision that uses an IR illuminator to project a beam. thermals do not detect ir light. they detect changes in temperature.

ignorance about what a thermal is and is not is astonishing.


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You are correct. And I have to laugh at the "sniperscope" word they threw in there...typical CA.

This whole conversation is interesting, because I have lately been really thinking about WHY night hunting is illegal for most creatures [namely, deer species]. Thinking of quite a few factors here:

Deer habits and being nocturnal around hunting season. It would almost seem "easier" to hunt them at night, during periods of higher night activity.

However, getting past the following, and trusting people to follow the laws, rules, regulations, and good practices is the hangup: do you allow thermals? IR? how do you ensure the hunter knows what the target is, what is IN FRONT of the target, and what is beyond? where do you draw the line with "Fair chase?"

Think about hunting during a full moon, during the rut, with a bow. How neat would that be?

Because, think about it. Other predatory species don't draw the line at "I won't hunt at night because it's an unfair advantage to me" [wolves!].

Human contrivances, tendencies, behaviors, technology...getting in the way of an otherwise arguably reasonable idea, in my opinion.

 

[CHAD PEZZLE]

Try and buy one in CA...I did. https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-468.html

There are plenty of places to buy thermal that will ship to california.

You linked the law/code for a sniperscope. A sniperscope has a very specific definition, and is most definitely not a thermal unit. I think a sniperscope is essentially a nightvision scope that has the ability to use zoom and also has a built in IR light that can cast/throw a beam to further illuminate the target.

Quoted from your link "through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope"

Thermal and infrared are totally different, thermal doesn't meet the definition of a sniperscope.

 

[CHAD PEZZLE]

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

What's so funny?

 

[Kwa_bena]

I am not advocating the use of IR in hunting. What I'm saying is that over the generations of hunters (probably from the spear, bow and arrow, flintlock, etc.) there's always been an "unfair chase" advantage, and as technology improves, so too will this argument continue.

IMHO each hunter defines their own Fair Chase. For the record I think IR is good to use for predators, and personal safety (i.e. I'd like to know if I'm about to walk into a grizzly and her cubs.)

For me, if it can escape and evade you and possibly not come back into the area for sometime if at all then it's fair chase to me.
But with thermal imaging, I would only use it pre and post season for scouting and then during season it stays at home unless I'm hunting hogs or coyotes which are almost impossible to hunt during the day. Seeing this as an "emergent hunter", I'm not really tainted by the hype and the obsession of getting the biggest buck, bull, or whatever.

 

[canyonhunter47]

I draw the line at devices that use a power source to boost senses to find game above what they are capable of naturally while hunting. While this might sound like a post hoc justification, I see a big difference between manipulating ambient light (like a spotting scope) and electronically adding to it.

By that measure IR and night vision are out, while binos, spotting scopes, etc. are fine (hearing aids and similar devices that purely restorative are fine to me too).

Illuminated reticles/pins and rangefinders typically do use batteries, but I see that as different since they don’t really give your natural eyesight a boost in the same way an IR would. Illum for pins and reticles helps you see your aiming device better, not the animal. Rangefinders don’t really boost your vision in the same way either, and they help make a better shot on game you already found, which to me is different from helping finding new game

I’d have to give more thought to preseason scouting and recovery. Thermals would definitely help but finding an before season while scouting doesn’t guarantee the animal will be in the same spot months later. Likewise, avoiding an animal going to waste is a pretty good ethical argument in it’s favor unless it leads to users using it as a crutch for marginal shots.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

In the field (hunting) possession is illegal.

§353.
( i ) Except as otherwise provided, while taking or attempting to take big game under the provisions of Section 353 or Section 354, Title 14, CCR, it is unlawful to use any device or devices which: 1) throw, cast or project an artificial light or electronically alter or intensify a light source for the purpose of visibly enhancing an animal; or 2) throw, cast or project an artificial light or electronically alter or intensify a light source for the purpose of providing a visible point of aim directly on an animal. Devices commonly referred to as "sniperscopes", night vision scopes or binoculars, or those utilizing infra-red, heat sensing or other non-visible spectrum light technology used for the purpose of visibly enhancing an animal or providing a visible point of aim directly on an animal are prohibited and may not be possessed while taking or attempting to take big game. Devices commonly referred to as laser rangefinders, "red-dot" scopes with self-illuminating reticles, and fiberoptic sights with self illuminating sight or pins which do not throw, cast or project a visible light onto an animal are permitted.

 

[Loper]

I love the technology. Nothing like watching a hog come in when it’s darker than my granny’s cooter.

Hilarious!

 

[Hoodie]

Saying that people are going to disagree with where we draw the line is a different thing than saying there shouldn't be a line.

If just killing animals by any means necessary was super hard there wouldn't be a need for a "fair chase" concept. In practical terms what you get with all this is less tags for shorter seasons at worse times of the year.

 

[CHAD PEZZLE]

In the field (hunting) possession is illegal.

§353.
( i ) Except as otherwise provided, while taking or attempting to take big game under the provisions of Section 353 or Section 354, Title 14, CCR, it is unlawful to use any device or devices which: 1) throw, cast or project an artificial light or electronically alter or intensify a light source for the purpose of visibly enhancing an animal; or 2) throw, cast or project an artificial light or electronically alter or intensify a light source for the purpose of providing a visible point of aim directly on an animal. Devices commonly referred to as "sniperscopes", night vision scopes or binoculars, or those utilizing infra-red, heat sensing or other non-visible spectrum light technology used for the purpose of visibly enhancing an animal or providing a visible point of aim directly on an animal are prohibited and may not be possessed while taking or attempting to take big game. Devices commonly referred to as laser rangefinders, "red-dot" scopes with self-illuminating reticles, and fiberoptic sights with self illuminating sight or pins which do not throw, cast or project a visible light onto an animal are permitted.

That sure was a long way of saying that I was right. Possession and use of thermal in California is legal. Using it to hunt/pursue big game is not legal.

It's even legal to use in certain circumstances under depredation permits, but I think express written permission must be listed on the permit.

 

[Opah]

I stand corrected, yes it is a no no to hunt with night vision in position. I think it would be ok if it were preseason and you were not dressed to kill.
I think not, the antlers are cold and present no heat signature. so the best you are going to get is there were deer in that area a week ago.
I really do not see a super advantage?

 

[Kwa_bena]

The OP was not speaking of Hunting, he asked about preseason scouting, which means if you did find a deer could you tell if it were a buck? I think not, the antlers are cold and present no heat signature. so the best you are going to get is there were deer in that area a week ago.
I really do not see a super advantage?

I would not see a problem with that at all. A person would still have to move into a distance were they can still have to shoot the game.

 

[OutdoorPhys]

Is using a thermal monocular while hiking into your hunting area before the sun is up ethical or should we shun this technology and behavior. I am not asking if shooting before it’s light is ethical. most agree it is not. I am asking for comments about using thermals before it’s light while hiking before the sun is up.

I had an experience this year that made me realize hunters are not always ready for new technology and i want to see what others think about the advancements in optics and weapon technology that is changing the way we hunt.

let’s hear some thoughts!


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I think so long as you’re not overly loud and you take your time you can get to your hunting spot with little impact on deer. You might blow one out of the area but there’s often one best route to your stand. If you have a thermal scanner and you see a deer you can’t change much anyway.

 

[Steves29]

I think so long as you’re not overly loud and you take your time you can get to your hunting spot with little impact on deer. You might blow one out of the area but there’s often one best route to your stand. If you have a thermal scanner and you see a deer you can’t change much anyway.

This is an interesting thread. I've hunted for hogs and used thermals and night vision for years and I am only now getting into game hunting. I can say for me, my instinctive reaction was that I wouldn't even consider using my thermals for anything to do with game hunting. You can say what you will about other technological advantages we currently use but I know for a fact I would be way overpowered with one of my thermals; even as a spotter. I can scan a 3 mile valley for deer in about 30 seconds at night with my higher end thermal(I've done it many times), would be a cakewalk to post up and wait for legal light

 

[OutdoorPhys]

This is an interesting thread. I've hunted for hogs and used thermals and night vision for years and I am only now getting into game hunting. I can say for me, my instinctive reaction was that I wouldn't even consider using my thermals for anything to do with game hunting. You can say what you will about other technological advantages we currently use but I know for a fact I would be way overpowered with one of my thermals; even as a spotter. I can scan a 3 mile valley for deer in about 30 seconds at night with my higher end thermal(I've done it many times), would be a cakewalk to post up and wait for legal light

Woah, the thermals I’ve only had a chance to use were nowhere near that powerful. Being strong enough to detect deer numbers in a particular area would be an unfair advantage and unsportsmanlike

 

[Steves29]

Woah, the thermals I’ve only had a chance to use were nowhere near that powerful. Being strong enough to detect deer numbers in a particular area would be an unfair advantage and unsportsmanlike

Oh yeah, its a Trijicon REAP IR, one of the better thermals out there. I can scan a 20 acre field and spot every rabbit in it in a matter of seconds in pitch black. Only thing worse would be a thermal equipped drone which can be had now for around $4000. Could fly over an area scanning for animals, mark the coordinates and then post up waiting for daylight to take a shot. Absolutely no way this wouldn't be an insanely overpowered advantage.

 

[riversidejeep]

I brought mine along on a camping vacation this late summer just to check things out around camp after dark. In one area we camped I was able to see a mountain range about a mile in each direction and about 1/2 mile away. After a couple hours of darkness I could glass up elk herds , mule deer, coyotes across the entire area. Thermals have absolutely no business in the hunting of game. The idea of hunting is the hunt, if you just want to kill, go to a dairy and the farmer will let you whack an old cow.

 

[flyovercountry]

I archery hunt a lot of public land with my son, and debated the use of thermal imagers also. I tend to hike in a pretty good distance, and a thermal imager is the best tool available to ensure I don’t jump bedded deer (maybe that’s cheating?) on the way to my chosen spot, and to avoid walking through another hunter’s setup. I’ve had guys flash a light or use a turkey call if I’m too close in the pre-dawn hours, but it really is awesome to scan a treeline or field edge in the dark and spot a hunter before I walk right into him/her. In trying to teach my son some outdoors etiquette, a primary focus is to not burden another hunter with our presence. If he/she got out there even earlier than we did, they have the right to enjoy their hunt on their spot.

I do not use the imager to stalk or set up on deer - reading sign/habitat is another thing I’m teaching my son. Most trips we both learn something.