AR-15 10 Shot Group Size?

[MTMeatHunter]

New to ARs. I have a 16” Daniel Defense with a factory trigger that is stagey and I’d guess is around 4 pounds. Trijicon 1-4x LPVO. Just shot a 12 round group at 100 yards with factory 73gr ELDM that measured 2.5”. Shot prone off a rear bag and front rest. I don’t think I’m disappointed, but should I be expecting a lot better?

For reference, the last 10 shot group I shot with my Tikka in 270 win measured .85”.

 

[wind gypsy]

Never shot much for groups at 4x so it’s hard sayin.

 

[RockAndSage]

Normal. And, frankly, everything you need for what you need an DD AR15 for. You're good.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

Shooting groups at 4x was definitely interesting but it was the 4# trigger that I could really tell was not helping. Used to my Tikka triggers all dialed down and crisp…

 

[Steve The Killer Llama]

I don’t have experience With DD but my factory Ruger keeps em inside 3” at 100 (hammer forged barrel) budget accuracy.
I also have a Frankenstein build with an 18” gunner profile barrel that opens up to about 7-8” after 5 shots… hope that helps

 

[Caseknife]

Many options for a/m triggers if you think that is what is holding you up. Don't expect a 10 round group under an inch with an AR-15 unless it has had LOTS of work done to it.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

An aftermarket trigger crossed my mind, but at the same time, if I want to shoot sub inch groups I’d grab a bolt gun from the safe. Just kinda curious what I should expect with the setup as it sits. I have pretty much zero reference. Thanks for the thoughts so far!

 

[ProRoad]

I am very new to ARs and have built 3 since March. 6ARC, 22ARC and .223. (the .223 has a 1-6 scope and my groups are 2-3 inches) I have experienced loose groups but with the right ammo, they are under an inch with the right setup. (4-16 scope) Try some different ammo and it may tighten up. Also, as everyone knows, your tightest groups come with handloads, factory can be all over the place. I have a new Geissele 2 stage trigger that I have fired about 20 times freehand. I think it will blow my mind when I finally get a scope on that build. (Now I know what all the hype is about) But yea, a 2.5 inch group out of a 16" barreled AR is gonna get the job done.

 

[RockAndSage]

OP, this post is one of the most valuable sources of realistic info you're going to get on rifle accuracy expectations vs reality, anywhere on the internet. It's 100% worth reading. Anyone claiming they're getting a sub-MOA group with anything, please read this thread too.

This is my summary in my own learning within that thread, but the entire thing is a goldmine for genuinely understanding reality.

 

[1000yards]

I have a 16" PWS that shoots factory Black Hills just over an inch for ten shots. Scope is normally at 9x and the only mod is a geissele trigger. I have no idea if this is normal or not.

 

[chuckD]

You should be expecting better

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

New to ARs. I have a 16” Daniel Defense with a factory trigger that is stagey and I’d guess is around 4 pounds. Trijicon 1-4x LPVO. Just shot a 12 round group at 100 yards with factory 73gr ELDM that measured 2.5”. Shot prone off a rear bag and front rest. I don’t think I’m disappointed, but should I be expecting a lot better?

For reference, the last 10 shot group I shot with my Tikka in 270 win measured .85”.

Might try some different ammo, but 2-something MOA is pretty par for the course for a non-accuracy-oritented AR15. Any semi-auto has a lot going against it for precision class accuracy because they require fundamentally sloppier headspace than a bolt gun does for reliability. It's also a fact that banging loaded rounds into the chamber with a lot of speed and force from a high tension spring tends to rough the bullets up a bit (in some cases causing runnout), and bleeding pressure to run the BCG isn't typically great for ES/SD, etc. You get the idea - to make the gun run in such a way you'd say to yourself "I would trust my life to this thing going bang every mother loving time I pull the trigger, clean or dirty, hot or cold, etc" requires certain trade-offs of the very things that typically contribute to awesome accuracy.

All that said, you can build or buy an AR15 that's pretty accurate, but the extra-accurate kind doesn't come with a CMV chrome lined barrel with a 5.56 chamber; the really accurate ones come with stainless barrels and some variation of a match grade chamber (223 Wylde or similar). It's a trade off though - the extra-accurate AR's aren't usually in the same class of combat-worthy-ness as your DD.

All that's a lot of words to say, you need to buy or build another AR15 or three.

 

[coya]

Pretty eye opening to see the difference in 10 shot group size from bolt gun to AR.
My 11.5 with acog shot a 2.4 10 shot group with factory 73 eldm. The gun despises black hills & bonefrog 77 tmk which i found surprising since its a 7 twist

 

[Bluefish]

I have one upper than came from a national match shooter, 20” kreiger barrel. It’s well under 1” at 100. I also have a 16” GI chrome barrel that’s closer to 4”. So it really depends. Personally the 4” barrel is not good enough and I only use it with a red dot as it’s not accurate enough for any precision work.

 

[RWT]

I spent a lot of $ chasing a 5 shot sub MOA group in an AR for a Pdog hunt. Ended up taking my bolt guns. It can be done but IMO the three areas to focus on in order are barrel, barrel fit in the upper and trigger. Mine shoots it just fine now, however, I shoot the bolt guns much better. So much easier to get behind a bolt and settle in than an AR. I currently have it for sale if interested.

 

[grfox92]

10 shot group. Bone stock S&W M&P 15.

55gr V Max Fiocchi factory ammo.

Sent from my SM-S931U using Tapatalk

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

Another way in which an AR is mechanically less inclined to precision accuracy than a bolt gun is the firing mechanism. The lock time of an AR15 is around 10-12 ms vs 1.5 to 2 ms on a Tikka and maybe 3ms on a Rem 700. Lock time is how long it takes between when you break the trigger and the pin hits the primer, during which time any minute movement of the gun will impact POI.

So you have a longer lock time, but that is further compounded by the fact that an AR15 also has about twice the mass in motion during that 10-12 ms, and that mass is not moving in a straight line with the bore the way it does on a bolt gun, in fact that mass (the hammer) is spinning round the hammer pin with quite a bit of force due to the spring tension.

So basically, you have a long time (relatively) in which your gun can get a hair off target, you (probably) have a trigger with a fair bit of over-travel, and you have forces in play inside the gun that aren't pushing in a straight line with the bore. None of that is conducive to being competitive with a bolt gun.

As with headspace and such, these are again things that can be improved in the pursuit of accuracy - a number or AR15 trigger systems feature a lower mass hammer and significantly improved lock times, but again, going there, moves us away from the type of robustly reliable trigger system that the mil-spec assembly is, which you can drag through the deserts of Afghanistan bouncing around in a humvee and still expect to work flawlessly when the locals start shooting at you and you want to shoot back.

And again, this is not a reason to not buy an AR15, this is a reason to buy a variety of AR15s!!

 

[DuckDawg22]

military requirements for an M4/AR is 4MOA so you're doing better than most. If you bought a DD thinking it would be sub MOA then that's on you. Have to build one yourself to get that sort of accuracy, based on your reports it's doing what it's supposed to.

You're getting a mil-spec barrel even at the DD price point so some guys get one that is subMOA and others get one that's 4moa. ARs are like adult legos, learn to build and prepare to part with more cash than you're comfortable with. It's addicting.

 

[KJ_ND]

16" Noveske SS barrel with ADI 55gr blitzking off F/R bags. Haven't ran any tmks through it yet. My 20" criterion core is around 1.5" with bonefrog and phantom 77gr tmk.

 

[RockAndSage]

Another way in which an AR is mechanically less inclined to precision accuracy than a bolt gun is the firing mechanism. The lock time of an AR15 is around 10-12 ms vs 1.5 to 2 ms on a Tikka and maybe 3ms on a Rem 700. Lock time is how long it takes between when you break the trigger and the pin hits the primer, during which time any minute movement of the gun will impact POI.

So you have a longer lock time, but that is further compounded by the fact that an AR15 also has about twice the mass in motion during that 10-12 ms, and that mass is not moving in a straight line with the bore the way it does on a bolt gun, in fact that mass (the hammer) is spinning round the hammer pin with quite a bit of force due to the spring tension.

So basically, you have a long time (relatively) in which your gun can get a hair off target, you (probably) have a trigger with a fair bit of over-travel, and you have forces in play inside the gun that aren't pushing in a straight line with the bore. None of that is conducive to being competitive with a bolt gun.

As with headspace and such, these are again things that can be improved in the pursuit of accuracy - a number or AR15 trigger systems feature a lower mass hammer and significantly improved lock times, but again, going there, moves us away from the type of robustly reliable trigger system that the mil-spec assembly is, which you can drag through the deserts of Afghanistan bouncing around in a humvee and still expect to work flawlessly when the locals start shooting at you and you want to shoot back.

And again, this is not a reason to not buy an AR15, this is a reason to buy a variety of AR15s!!

You're speaking some solid truths about ARs. And not to detract from any of it in saying this: There aren't very many sub-MOA shooters out there, or sub-MOA rifles at all, let alone ARs.

Further, if there's anything I learned from the thread I posted above, after giving it both careful thought reflecting on my own decades of shooting, and then going out and applying the content in volume, it's this:

1) Ten-round groups used in determining a gun's accuracy are illusions at best, internet lies at worst, with most falling in-between by guys cherry-picking what they post.

2) 30 round groups are the absolute minimum I'll trust anymore in determining a gun's inherent accuracy. I'll adjust zero with a 10-round group, but that's all it's good for - and that only comes after proofing a gun's genuine cone of fire with a given load.

3) A genuine sub-MOA AR is one of the rarest guns on the planet - for all of reasons you've mentioned in your posts above, plus more. They exist, but what it takes to make them that way is expensive, along with uncommon competencies in smithing.

4) Most guys don't know what their own inherent MOA/accuracy is as a shooter, because they've literally never even held a genuinely sub-MOA gun, shooting sub-MOA ammo, in conditions that allow for sub-MOA shooting - let alone spent much time behind one.

5) Very, very few people are legitimately sub-MOA shooters. Anyone can randomly throw a 5 or 10-round sub-MOA group with enough practice and volume. But people who are consistently, on-demand sub-MOA shooters are as rare as an honest politician.

6) Finding both a shooter and an AR that are consistently sub-MOA is one of the rarest combos in the rifle-shooting world. They exist, I've witnessed it, and they're generally current or former competitors or professionals having done that kind of work full time - with highly specialized, crafted ARs.

Anyone consistently getting 2-MOA 30-round groups with any AR, especially an off-the-shelf one, is doing well.