Any flintlock hunters around here?

[HighUintas]

Very cool info. It brought up some questions though... mostly, how are they measuring gauge? Is it from the lands, or grooves? IIRC, isn't 28ga basically 54cal? Is that how they would have converted it?

Gauge is basically balls to the pound. So, a 28 gauge is 28 balls to the pound (a 250gr ball) which is somewhere around 0.550 ball and maybe used in a 56cal bore (0.560 land to land).

The measurements can sometimes be misleading if only measuring the muzzle because some muzzles were coned.

 

[2Stamp]

That gun just keeps getting cooler, thanks for sharing the info.

The point you made about parts suppliers being older family-run businesses is a big deal. All my muzzleloading experience was as a kid, then went to college, DC, a ton of work overseas, then back to the real world about 10 years ago to start a business, get married, etc. And finally got back into hunting, and wanted to pursue some muzzleloader muleys. Of course, I turn to Dixie Gun Works to find a kit gun...and find almost nothing but ghosts. When I was a kid it was like the Sears catalog, 20 or 30 kit rifles to choose from. Now there's virtually nothing out there. Good to see someone like Kibler has kept it alive.

Not directed at you (I'm guessing you already know), but for anyone else cruising this thread and may be interested and looking for parts/ kits:
Kibler's Longrifles
Jim Chambers Flintlocks
Track of the Wolf
Pecatonica River Longrifle supply
Muzzleloader Builders Supply

Parts kits can be a blessing or a curse. Some are really well build, others can be more hassle than a scratch build. I have a builder friend in ID that can generally make a from scratch quicker than a kit. Kibler and Chambers are probably a couple of the best ones out there. (Or at least were when I was into making longrifles 10 or so years ago.)

 

[RockAndSage]

Not directed at you (I'm guessing you already know), but for anyone else cruising this thread and may be interested and looking for parts/ kits:
Kibler's Longrifles
Jim Chambers Flintlocks
Track of the Wolf
Pecatonica River Longrifle supply
Muzzleloader Builders Supply

Parts kits can be a blessing or a curse. Some are really well build, others can be more hassle than a scratch build. I have a builder friend in ID that can generally make a from scratch quicker than a kit. Kibler and Chambers are probably a couple of the best ones out there. (Or at least were when I was into making longrifles 10 or so years ago.)

That's great stuff actually, much appreciated. I was only aware of Kibler and Track of the Wolf, so those other sources were great to look at.

 

[RockAndSage]

Not directed at you (I'm guessing you already know), but for anyone else cruising this thread and may be interested and looking for parts/ kits:
Kibler's Longrifles
Jim Chambers Flintlocks
Track of the Wolf
Pecatonica River Longrifle supply
Muzzleloader Builders Supply

Parts kits can be a blessing or a curse. Some are really well build, others can be more hassle than a scratch build. I have a builder friend in ID that can generally make a from scratch quicker than a kit. Kibler and Chambers are probably a couple of the best ones out there. (Or at least were when I was into making longrifles 10 or so years ago.)

On this note - who would some of the better custom builders be these days? Any recommendations?

 

[2Stamp]

On this note - who would some of the better custom builders be these days? Any recommendations?

I haven't stayed on top of it. Kevin Blevins comes to mind. Allen Martin. John Stanley (but I think he's retiring from building). I think Chuck Edwards is still building. The CLA has a list of builders on their site. When I was on there a lot, the Muzzleloading Forum had some really good builders also.

 

[Olsolitaire1]

Here are a few others to add to the list:

Custom Flintlock Muzzleloaders by D.K. Lisle

The following galleries feature a few of the flintlock rifles that D.K. Lisle has built in the past. Click on the thumbnail to open other images of each particular gun. All of the guns shown here are sold.

www.custommuzzleloaders.com

Ready to Ship Kits-20% off till Jan 31, 2025 - Sitting Fox Custom Muzzleloaders

sittingfoxcustommuzzleloaders.com

Donelson Custom Muzzleloaders Custom Guns

stonewallcreekoutfitters.com – Everything you need to build or fix your muzzleloader and flintlock rifle..

Everything you need to build or fix your muzzleloader and flintlock rifle..

stonewallcreekoutfitters.com

The Rifle Shoppe, Inc. - Home Page

Military Firearm Reproductions, Muzzle Loading, Antique Firearm Replicas, matchlocks, wheellocks, snaplocks, flintlocks,Exact replica muskets, Baker Rifles, Harpers Ferry Rifles, Brown Bess, Flintlock

www.therifleshoppe.com

 

[Olsolitaire1]

Gauge was that ratio of how many balls to a pound of lead. You will read in many of the original journals from the rocky mountain/western fur trade period, the trappers would make references to rifles size by x amount of balls to the pound. When looking over the fur companies supply records you notice that they were shipping and sold lead and powder together in a ratio of 2 to 1, 2 lbs of lead to one pound of powder. Even the ledgers show that when a trapper purchased these items it was in the same ratio. The amount of powder to shoot that amount of lead? The theory is yes, maybe it seems to equate. Vol. 5 of The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade journal, Doyle Reid, AMM, wrote an article " Lock, Stock and Barrel: Arming the Far Western Mountaineers" where he put this theory to the test.

To add some more to the steel Henry, this is the copy of the original first order for them, note the details:



The first were ordered in 1831 and described: "10 rifles, single trigger, same as Dickert Gill sample... brown bbls.; length 3' to 3' 2" steel mountings instead of brass, but of the same shape and dimensions as brass mounted rifles, maple stock chequered grip, handsome pattern steel mounting, Ball mould to fit the caliber exactly," and ten more, "bbl. 3'6", 28 ga.$14. and to have the very best locks of 5" plate."

Later specifications called for 3-foot, 4-inch; 3-foot, 6-inch; and 3-foot, 8-inch barrels, checkered wrists, 10 to 11 pounds weight, and the gauge was sometimes 32. Crooks wrote J. J. Henry that the rifles were "to be manufactured with great care." The company was willing to pay up to $17 per rifle if they had superior locks. In 1832 the company demanded that the steel-mounted rifles be "made better quality." On September 9, 1833, the AMF ordered "20 Rifles-s[ingle] trigger 38" brl., 28/lb. [28 gauge] 5-inch waterproof [pan] very superior quality maple, chequered grip, steel mountings of a handsome pattern. Wiper to unscrew in middle. 10-11 pounds."

 

[RockAndSage]

Gauge was that ratio of how many balls to a pound of lead. You will read in many of the original journals from the rocky mountain/western fur trade period, the trappers would make references to rifles size by x amount of balls to the pound. When looking over the fur companies supply records you notice that they were shipping and sold lead and powder together in a ratio of 2 to 1, 2 lbs of lead to one pound of powder. Even the ledgers show that when a trapper purchased these items it was in the same ratio. The amount of powder to shoot that amount of lead? The theory is yes, maybe it seems to equate. Vol. 5 of The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade journal, Doyle Reid, AMM, wrote an article " Lock, Stock and Barrel: Arming the Far Western Mountaineers" where he put this theory to the test.

To add some more to the steel Henry, this is the copy of the original first order for them, note the details:

View attachment 827303

The first were ordered in 1831 and described: "10 rifles, single trigger, same as Dickert Gill sample... brown bbls.; length 3' to 3' 2" steel mountings instead of brass, but of the same shape and dimensions as brass mounted rifles, maple stock chequered grip, handsome pattern steel mounting, Ball mould to fit the caliber exactly," and ten more, "bbl. 3'6", 28 ga.$14. and to have the very best locks of 5" plate."

Later specifications called for 3-foot, 4-inch; 3-foot, 6-inch; and 3-foot, 8-inch barrels, checkered wrists, 10 to 11 pounds weight, and the gauge was sometimes 32. Crooks wrote J. J. Henry that the rifles were "to be manufactured with great care." The company was willing to pay up to $17 per rifle if they had superior locks. In 1832 the company demanded that the steel-mounted rifles be "made better quality." On September 9, 1833, the AMF ordered "20 Rifles-s[ingle] trigger 38" brl., 28/lb. [28 gauge] 5-inch waterproof [pan] very superior quality maple, chequered grip, steel mountings of a handsome pattern. Wiper to unscrew in middle. 10-11 pounds."

This is extremely interesting information, and it finally makes sense why they'd be using gauge as a measure with rifled arms - it helped with the logistics planning around bulk lead and powder. Much appreciated.