Another Wyoming Fee!

[OR Archer]

Spare the drama. WY point prices are already outrageous, the special draw is money suck.. Virtual Ponzi scheme for anyone even fairly new to sheep, goats and moose draws. Lets not even go the insane license increases that took place in 2018.
If the people that have been pulling the weight all this time want to bitch I think they have ample cause.

For a non Resident it’s pretty dang affordable compared to my home state where you have to purchase a license before you can even apply for a point. And it’s non refundable the license fee to boot. All about perspective I guess.

 

[BuzzH]

Except resident elk hunting tags.

A two-day lift ticket at the Snowy Range ski area costs almost twice what a Wyoming resident pays to hunt elk for an entire season. You can't buy six hunting arrows or feed a family at Chili's for the price of a resident tag.

I know residents pay property and sales taxes, no income tax, but that does not help their underfunded G&F

I am not bitching about my non-resident tag fees and yes RESIDENTS SHOULD PAY LESS but the disparity is absurd when the department is hurting for $.

If the resident elk hunter paid the same as the two-day skier just for their elk tag, G&F immediately adds almost $2.5 million to their budget (based on 2017 tag numbers) and the resident is still paying less than 15% of the non-resident fee. I don't understand the logic of venison food stamps for residents when the G&F department remains underfunded.

Failed logic...all the way around.

First off, the citizens of Wyoming don't have to offer a NR a single tag for anything. Further, its up to the citizens of Wyoming to decide how much we charge NR hunters for the opportunity to hunt our wildlife. That's completely independent of what Residents pay. I do agree that Residents should pay more, but the disparity isn't going away. Not very many States I know of that charge R and NR the same for access to consumptive use of their wildlife.

Secondly, the big part of the picture, that never seems to come up, is all the funding from NGO's that primarily comes from Residents. I also don't see many NR's driving across the State to attend WPLI, RMP, Commission meetings, legislative sessions, etc. etc. and using vacation to do so. Yet, residents primarily fund the NGO's and spend a lot of money looking out for the best interest of public lands, wildlife, etc. etc.

Finally, the Department is not underfunded and the last NR/R fee increase legislation, actually resulted in LESS revenue to the Department. YES, that's right, the fee increases to both R and NR licenses didn't cover the loss of General Funds that the Legislature removed via the same bill that was passed for the fee increase. Exactly why WYBHA opposed the legislation 2 years ago...and received essentially no help from either R or NR on opposing the bill.

Bitching about license fees for Residents being too low, and NR being too high is always a fun sport...but largely baseless and unproductive.

 

[Muledeerfanatic]

I love these threads. Don't like it, don't come here.

 

[realunlucky]

Failed logic...all the way around.

First off, the citizens of Wyoming don't have to offer a NR a single tag for anything. Further, its up to the citizens of Wyoming to decide how much we charge NR hunters for the opportunity to hunt our wildlife. That's completely independent of what Residents pay. I do agree that Residents should pay more, but the disparity isn't going away. Not very many States I know of that charge R and NR the same for access to consumptive use of their wildlife.

Secondly, the big part of the picture, that never seems to come up, is all the funding from NGO's that primarily comes from Residents. I also don't see many NR's driving across the State to attend WPLI, RMP, Commission meetings, legislative sessions, etc. etc. and using vacation to do so. Yet, residents primarily fund the NGO's and spend a lot of money looking out for the best interest of public lands, wildlife, etc. etc.

Finally, the Department is not underfunded and the last NR/R fee increase legislation, actually resulted in LESS revenue to the Department. YES, that's right, the fee increases to both R and NR licenses didn't cover the loss of General Funds that the Legislature removed via the same bill that was passed for the fee increase. Exactly why WYBHA opposed the legislation 2 years ago...and received essentially no help from either R or NR on opposing the bill.

Bitching about license fees for Residents being too low, and NR being too high is always a fun sport...but largely baseless and unproductive.

Is there a state that fails to offer a non-resident opportunity?

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[BuzzH]

Is there a state that fails to offer a non-resident opportunity?

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Yes.

Try applying for a Rocky Mountain bighorn in Nevada...or Nebraska...North Dakota elk are resident only, to name a few.

I don't have a problem with any State choosing to not issue NR licenses...just very thankful to those that do.

 

[realunlucky]

Yes.

Try applying for a Rocky Mountain bighorn in Nevada...or Nebraska...North Dakota elk are resident only, to name a few.

Doesn't matter was just curious on what states excluded all non resident hunting opportunities.

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[Chucklehead]

Failed logic...all the way around.

First off, the citizens of Wyoming don't have to offer a NR a single tag for anything. Further, its up to the citizens of Wyoming to decide how much we charge NR hunters for the opportunity to hunt our wildlife. That's completely independent of what Residents pay. I do agree that Residents should pay more, but the disparity isn't going away. Not very many States I know of that charge R and NR the same for access to consumptive use of their wildlife.

Secondly, the big part of the picture, that never seems to come up, is all the funding from NGO's that primarily comes from Residents. I also don't see many NR's driving across the State to attend WPLI, RMP, Commission meetings, legislative sessions, etc. etc. and using vacation to do so. Yet, residents primarily fund the NGO's and spend a lot of money looking out for the best interest of public lands, wildlife, etc. etc.

Finally, the Department is not underfunded and the last NR/R fee increase legislation, actually resulted in LESS revenue to the Department. YES, that's right, the fee increases to both R and NR licenses didn't cover the loss of General Funds that the Legislature removed via the same bill that was passed for the fee increase. Exactly why WYBHA opposed the legislation 2 years ago...and received essentially no help from either R or NR on opposing the bill.

Bitching about license fees for Residents being too low, and NR being too high is always a fun sport...but largely baseless and unproductive.

Counter to your first point: He never stated that he had a problem with tag price differences. You seem pretty defensive on this issue for some reason. He was just making a comparison of one recreational activity to another. I will disagree LostArra on resident taxes not funding G&F because they do. Some funding comes from state budget which comes from resident taxes.

On your second point: What are these NGOs? This is a genuine question. I honestly don't know. And what state department are they under?
In regards to lobbying: Have you ever tried to lobby a state senator that's not in your district? Let alone another state? They look out for the voters in there district and/or where they get their money from. That's all.

And I don't think anyone is totally POed about a 2.5% increase. It's just a little frustrating that tags get increased every year. Even after a huge markup last year. But it's not like every G&F officer is driving a jacked up diesel truck or anything. I feel like they are doing the best they can with the cards the state legislature delt them.
But the state legislature is in a real pickle with coal and gas probably not bringing in as much revenue as in the past and having to deal with state budget cuts. But if you keep putting every budget shortfall on the back of NR hunters, if feels like wildlife in wyoming is being sold off to the highest bidder and eventually "I'm going to get priced out" is the thought.
Just my opinion.

 

[BuzzH]

Counter to your first point: He never stated that he had a problem with tag price differences. You seem pretty defensive on this issue for some reason. He was just making a comparison of one recreational activity to another. I will disagree LostArra on resident taxes not funding G&F because they do. Some funding comes from state budget which comes from resident taxes.

On your second point: What are these NGOs? This is a genuine question. I honestly don't know. And what state department are they under?
In regards to lobbying: Have you ever tried to lobby a state senator that's not in your district? Let alone another state? They look out for the voters in there district and/or where they get their money from. That's all.

And I don't think anyone is totally POed about a 2.5% increase. It's just a little frustrating that tags get increased every year. Even after a huge markup last year. But it's not like every G&F officer is driving a jacked up diesel truck or anything. I feel like they are doing the best they can with the cards the state legislature delt them.
But the state legislature is in a real pickle with coal and gas probably not bringing in as much revenue as in the past and having to deal with state budget cuts. But if you keep putting every budget shortfall on the back of NR hunters, if feels like wildlife in wyoming is being sold off to the highest bidder and eventually "I'm going to get priced out" is the thought.
Just my opinion.

1. Not defensive about anything, only support the States right to allocate and charge whatever they see fit for wildlife, both R and NR fees.

2. Numerous NGO's...RMEF, MDF, MF, WYHA, BOW, WWSF, WWF, etc. etc. etc.

3. Wyoming NR license fees were not increased for 6 years priors to the last fee increase, so your statement that they go up every year is completely false.

4. As of 2017, the WGF receives no general fund money...the Legislature saw to that with the last fee increase bill. WGF is fully self-funded, including employee insurance and benefit packages.

 

[LostArra]

Failed logic...all the way around.

First off, the citizens of Wyoming don't have to offer a NR a single tag for anything. Further, its up to the citizens of Wyoming to decide how much we charge NR hunters for the opportunity to hunt our wildlife. That's completely independent of what Residents pay. I do agree that Residents should pay more, but the disparity isn't going away. Not very many States I know of that charge R and NR the same for access to consumptive use of their wildlife.

Secondly, the big part of the picture, that never seems to come up, is all the funding from NGO's that primarily comes from Residents. I also don't see many NR's driving across the State to attend WPLI, RMP, Commission meetings, legislative sessions, etc. etc. and using vacation to do so. Yet, residents primarily fund the NGO's and spend a lot of money looking out for the best interest of public lands, wildlife, etc. etc.

Finally, the Department is not underfunded and the last NR/R fee increase legislation, actually resulted in LESS revenue to the Department. YES, that's right, the fee increases to both R and NR licenses didn't cover the loss of General Funds that the Legislature removed via the same bill that was passed for the fee increase. Exactly why WYBHA opposed the legislation 2 years ago...and received essentially no help from either R or NR on opposing the bill.

Bitching about license fees for Residents being too low, and NR being too high is always a fun sport...but largely baseless and unproductive.

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post.

I'm not complaining/bitching about non-resident tag fees. (Am I repeating myself?) I enjoy hunting Wyoming and those elk tags are worth it to me. The state of Wyoming paid my four years of college education in Laramie so I figure I'm still dollars ahead.

I'm not complaining about resident fees. I just don't understand why in today's recreation market the value of an elk tag is less than a weekend of skiing. (or a half day in Jackson)

You are definitely correct in that I do not know anything about how many of the 50,000 resident elk hunters participate in WPLI, RMP, Commission meetings, legislative sessions, etc. and fund the NGO's but I don't believe their involvement is the basis for dirt cheap tags. It's politicians who want to be re-elected. Just like in every other state.

It is good to know the G&F dept is well funded. I stand corrected.

 

[BuzzH]

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post.

I'm not complaining/bitching about non-resident tag fees. (Am I repeating myself?) I enjoy hunting Wyoming and those elk tags are worth it to me. The state of Wyoming paid my four years of college education in Laramie so I figure I'm still dollars ahead.

I'm not complaining about resident fees. I just don't understand why in today's recreation market the value of an elk tag is less than a weekend of skiing. (or a half day in Jackson)

You are definitely correct in that I do not know anything about how many of the 50,000 resident elk hunters participate in WPLI, RMP, Commission meetings, legislative sessions, etc. and fund the NGO's but I don't believe their involvement is the basis for dirt cheap tags. It's politicians who want to be re-elected. Just like in every other state.

It is good to know the G&F dept is well funded. I stand corrected.

Good deal, then apparently we're both fine with the fee structure for both R and NR hunting licenses in Wyoming.

No use in comparing prices of lift tickets with elk tags either.

 

[SW hunter]

I was undecided until somebody made the point about- why make everybody pay the CC fee if some dont want to use a CC? Good point i agree. But I do find it frustrating when you get a price for something and then its plus 3% for CC use.

As for tag prices going up and hunters walking away forever. Im not walking away. I knew what i got into when i started point buying in multiple states. Tags, applications, points, licenses, and associated fees are going up has always been my assumption. I did not expect it to get cheaper. I did enter into this whole thing expecting that as time passed by and I spent more money in each state that I would be more likely than not to attain more desirable hunts each year.

As a non resident i expect to pay significantly more for a tag and application than a resident. There is only one states non resident elk tag that i am not interested in because I think its laughably overpriced. For now, Wyoming can squeeze me for quite a bit more money before I walk away from the table for good.

 

[dr.mooseknuckles]

2.5% is a drop of piss in the pot compared to what we all spend on , gear, tags, license, etc. If that’s breaking the bank, maybe don’t spend $750 on a new pack, new high end clothing, etc. Its all relative. ANYWHERE you use a credit card you pay a fee to use said credit card.

This whole thread is kind of a laugh and a half


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[jmez]

South Dakota, mountain lion, elk, bighorn sheep, mountain goat are resident only.


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[Chucklehead]

1. Not defensive about anything, only support the States right to allocate and charge whatever they see fit for wildlife, both R and NR fees.

2. Numerous NGO's...RMEF, MDF, MF, WYHA, BOW, WWSF, WWF, etc. etc. etc.

3. Wyoming NR license fees were not increased for 6 years priors to the last fee increase, so your statement that they go up every year is completely false.

4. As of 2017, the WGF receives no general fund money...the Legislature saw to that with the last fee increase bill. WGF is fully self-funded, including employee insurance and benefit packages.

1. Nobody is questioning a states right to manage their wildlife or their right to set prices of tags. I hope that's something we all can agree on.
2. Gotcha, didn't get the acronym. Some of those are national orgs though. Most funding of those is thereby by NRs. And even state based orgs have NR members. I would agree that volunteer hours is definitely heavily carried by resident volunteers. And to say NR should be regularly volunteering in another state just isn't that realistic. And I cannot believe that these organizations projects are mostly funded by residents of Wyoming like you say. There is no way RMEFs or MDFs Wyoming projects are solely or even mostly funded by residents. So I have a hard time believing you on that one.
3. Point taken. but a 15%+ (in some cases a lot more) increase in one year effectively made up for that. I'm ok with this. I can afford it. (as long as the increases go to fish and game) But I worry that we are pricing new/younger hunters out to the point only the wealthy will be able to hunt Wyoming.
4. Thanks for the clarification. for some reason I thought their budget was cut down not eliminated totally. My error in memory.

- - - Updated - - -

Good deal, then apparently we're both fine with the fee structure for both R and NR hunting licenses in Wyoming.

No use in comparing prices of lift tickets with elk tags either.

I'm curious why you feel that way about the skiing thing Buzz. I feel like its a reasonable comparison with another outdoor recreational activity but I could be missing something as I haven't thought about it much.

- - - Updated - - -

2.5% is a drop of piss in the pot compared to what we all spend on , gear, tags, license, etc. If that’s breaking the bank, maybe don’t spend $750 on a new pack, new high end clothing, etc. Its all relative. ANYWHERE you use a credit card you pay a fee to use said credit card.

This whole thread is kind of a laugh and a half


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Agreed it is all relative. Anytime you use a CC the cost of using a CC is part of the purchase price. Nobody advertises a price then tacks on another 2.5% on top of that. (Idaho does, but idaho also takes checks in the mail if you don't want to pay the CC fee)
They would be better off just increasing the tag price 2.5% and be done with it. I feel that's a little more transparent as to the actual cost of what you are buying. But there was probably some red tape with the legislature to increase the actual tag cost. Just my guess anyway...

 

[jmez]

Aren't ski resorts privately owned for profit businesses? Far different than hunting.

 

[slick]

Aren't ski resorts privately owned for profit businesses? Far different than hunting.

Not all, but most. I’ve now lived in two towns that have ski mountains that are on Forest Service, but have a ski “foundation” that runs and I believe rents from the FS. So you’re paying to play on federal land, but also provided a service.

I will add for anyone that is interested is that ND offers a raffle for elk.

As someone who is funded by hunter dollars I enjoy this conversation. I see valid points on both sides, and I hope it continues.

 

[Steve O]

Here are some fascinating numbers that support Buzz. Amazingly the come from WOGA whom one would think would skew the numbers to the non resident...


https://www.wyoga.org/pdf/2017/southwick-study/Wyoming-Big-Game-Hunting-Economics-Southwick-Associates-Final.pdf

 

[jmez]

Table E2, there's your answer to the wilderness restrictions.

 

[bojangles808]

do NR get to hunt federal wlderness areas on their own now or will that racket continue?

 

[dirtytough]

For a non Resident it’s pretty dang affordable compared to my home state where you have to purchase a license before you can even apply for a point. And it’s non refundable the license fee to boot. All about perspective I guess.

Wyoming is about $850 non refundable to apply and get points for deer, elk, antelope, sheep, moose, goat, and bison. (no points for goat or bison) That's not applying for any female tags either. Your telling me it costs more in Oregon to apply then it does in Wyoming? I honestly doubt that. I buy a license in AZ, ID, NV, and not one of those states costs even $500 to apply in.



One other thing. The animals owned by the residents of the state live most of their lives on land owned by every citizen of the united states. Yet the citizens of the united states get zero compensation for the state owned animals living on their land. And a lot of those animals or areas most non res will never be able to hunt. So when I see some people say that we own the animals because we live here, yet those animals live on land I own. I could give two **** less if wolves or grizzlies are introduced and decimate the elk herd in an area. Why would I waste my time or money helping fight stuff like that when the residents of the state say you should feel privileged we allow you to pay $850 a year for the .05% chance to draw?