Age Restrictions in Lieu of APRs?

[cuerro viejo]

...but isn't TX like 97% private ground? Personally, I'd be ticked if I was a landowner and wanted to take first-time hunters out and had an excess of bucks but that regulation was in place. It's a struggle to help adult-onset hunter friends in Wyoming on 4-point deer on public lands, but I figure there's a tragedy of the commons problem on public ground out west at least.

Yes but one of the main Mulie public areas is OTC, So you either limit tags or protect younger deer.

Private has a way out of spread restrictions by joining an MLD program, which also gives a longer season and into the rut. But the MLD system basically turns you into a very hands on year round biologist vs just a two week consumptive user

 

[Hnthrdr]

I would just show up to watch all the influencers shoot 2.5 yr olds and talk about how they are 9yr olds that are “regressing” haha to echo others, can be super hard to age on the hoof, from 1600 yards away…. And honestly can never know till you age a tooth, seen some stomper 3.5/4.5 yr olds and some dink 9 yr olds, not ever deer will be 180 or even 150 for that matter

 

[Jaden Bales]

Yes but one of the main Mulie public areas is OTC, So you either limit tags or protect younger deer.

Private has a way out of spread restrictions by joining an MLD program, which also gives a longer season and into the rut. But the MLD system basically turns you into a very hands on year round biologist vs just a two week consumptive user

That's super interesting! Makes more sense on the main mulie public areas being OTC and doing that restriction.

Kinda cool that the MLD system gets guys more hands-on. I think that sounds like a great deal. But I don't know a darn thing otherwise about it.

 

[SageFlat]

Not to be a dick but your basically saying that you dont have the self control to keep your finger off the trigger, so everyone must be regulated so you can fill a tag on a mature deer or dont feel bad about eating a tag.

Eating tags is part of the process. I am 6 tags in a row deep.

Big deer get killed on every unit in the West each year.

The West has seen bad winters just like we went through. Deer herds have suffered because of them since the dawn of time and they have recovered. We dont need knee jerk reactions to save them.

Yup basically. And I’m quickly realizing my logic is flawed. Youth and impatience are showing through. My idea wasn’t really to save the deer herds, more so to keep folks from tipping over young deer for the gram. Which I confess I am guilty of more so for the meat than the gram, however. I’m slowly coming around to the idea of eating tags. But by god tags are spendy and beef ain’t cheap.

 

[CorbLand]

Yup basically. And I’m quickly realizing my logic is flawed. Youth and impatience are showing through. My idea wasn’t really to save the deer herds, more so to keep folks from tipping over young deer for the gram. Which I confess I am guilty of more so for the meat than the gram, however. I’m slowly coming around to the idea of eating tags. But by god tags are spendy and beef ain’t cheap.

You live in Idaho...which has very liberal cow elk tags with great seasons and they fill freezers way faster than deer. Just saying.

 

[mobilebyrd]

The average hunter I meet can't properly estimate distance. I can't imagine the average hunter correctly guessing the age of an animal even 30% of the time. Sometimes it's obvious an animal is "mature", sometimes it's not.

 

[SageFlat]

You live in Idaho...which has very liberal cow elk tags with great seasons and they fill freezers way faster than deer. Just saying.

I’m aware. Killed a bull every year for 14 and don’t plan on stopping.

 

[willfrye027]

I’m aware. Killed a bull every year for 14 and don’t plan on stopping.

Think about it this way. Forkies are plentiful and new ones are available every year. A 3-4 year old buck is much less common, even in the absence of hunting pressure.

I do not care whatsoever that guys want to smash forkies..it gets them off the mountain sooner and keep more of the 2-4 year old bucks alive.

Here’s a buck I was hunting in a general type unit last year..guys were very aggressively stalking every fork and spike they could find (mostly from the road). I had zero issue with that because it meant they weren’t looking for the deer I was!

 

[TaperPin]

Two black tail hunters from Oregon fired almost a dozen rounds at a young 3x3 grays river buck - and then dragged it whole, over 5 miles back to the road. The most work I’ve ever seen two guys put in for one tiny deer. Lol They said in the first light of day it looked like the biggest deer either of them had ever seen. It’s probably mounted and still hanging on their wall. It would be a shame if guys like that couldn’t take a little deer home. Lol

 

[sndmn11]

I’m slowly coming around to the idea of eating tags. But by god tags are spendy and beef ain’t cheap.

Read this a few times.

Think about it this way. Forkies are plentiful and new ones are available every year. A 3-4 year old buck is much less common, even in the absence of hunting pressure.

I do not care whatsoever that guys want to smash forkies..it gets them off the mountain sooner and keep more of the 2-4 year old bucks alive.

To pile on, if you buy into the "hunters are conservation" mantra, don't eat your tag and whack the dumbest least weary buck you can find as close to a road as you can find. Cleanse the gene pool of those traits and help make the herd hardier.

 

[yfarm]

Shooting young deer(under 5) will get you thrown off quality leases in Texas. It is expected when you join the lease that you possess adequate skills to age deer. The concept of shooting cull bucks is grounded in the aging process. Even children hunting with a parent are expected to abide by the rules, want meat shoot a doe.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

I think I posted this on another thread, but I've seen the same 3X3, I believe, hanging around my place in MO for 3+ years now, same rack, same routine, etc. He's getting big, body-wise. I believe he maybe 5+. 4-point rule in effect so I can't shoot him. I'm guessing a vast majority of hunters have no clue at aging. Conversely, aging can be very difficult.

 

[PathFinder]

I've done some thinking about the potential for a system to discourage harvest of younger deer. It would go something like this:

• Mandatory check in for all harvests. (Logistics of that are debatable)
• Aging can be done by biologists on the spot. 1 & 2 yr old deer are obvious
  • A dispute would be handled by tooth aging
• Killing a 1 yr old deer results in a 2 year waiting period before being eligible to apply/buy a tag. Killing a 2 yr old deer results in a 1 year waiting period before being eligible to apply/buy a tag

I'm not totally convinced it would make a great difference in hunt quality, but it seems to be a more comprehensive solution than APRs. To be completely honest it may just be the spite I feel for all of the losers making YouTube videos killing young deer and pretending that they're accomplishing something great.

 

[CorbLand]

I've done some thinking about the potential for a system to discourage harvest of younger deer. It would go something like this:

• Mandatory check in for all harvests. (Logistics of that are debatable)
• Aging can be done by biologists on the spot. 1 & 2 yr old deer are obvious
  • A dispute would be handled by tooth aging
• Killing a 1 yr old deer results in a 2 year waiting period before being eligible to apply/buy a tag. Killing a 2 yr old deer results in a 1 year waiting period before being eligible to apply/buy a tag

I'm not totally convinced it would make a great difference in hunt quality, but it seems to be a more comprehensive solution than APRs. To be completely honest it may just be the spite I feel for all of the losers making YouTube videos killing young deer and pretending that they're accomplishing something great.

Wouldnt be a bad system, although I am against APRs period. This would discourage shooting younger deer without it being punitive if you did.

I would never ever suggest the following as a system but I have always thought it would be cool to see the data if you did a unlimited/high allocation 4PT only tag along with the standard draw. Basically, buy/apply for a restrictive tag and have better odds of drawing or you can apply for an any buck tag. It would be interesting to see how many people went which way.

I still hate APRs though.

 

[idelkslayer]

What is this, the 5th thread on APRs so far this spring?

It boils down to this. If you prevent everyone from shooting forkies; then they have to hunt longer to find the smallest 3 or 4 pt on the mountain and kill that instead. The result is an increase of pressure on the thing you were wanting to preserve.

By preventing harvest of young deer you shift all the pressure to older age classes. If you kill the deer in the older age classes, you no longer have an older age class.

The last thing you should do if you want to have big bucks is tell all the hunters that they can only shoot big bucks.

 

[PathFinder]

Wouldnt be a bad system, although I am against APRs period. This would discourage shooting younger deer without it being punitive if you did.

I would never ever suggest the following as a system but I have always thought it would be cool to see the data if you did a unlimited/high allocation 4PT only tag along with the standard draw. Basically, buy/apply for a restrictive tag and have better odds of drawing or you can apply for an any buck tag. It would be interesting to see how many people went which way.

I still hate APRs though.

It would be great if agencies were willing to take a phased approach and try some of the different ideas in similar neighboring units for 3 years or so. That seems to have been done with APRs and the effect of them is starting to be well known.
In general I agree with @idelkslayer that such restrictions don't end up helping quality much. But an system that discourages harvest of younger deer hasn't been attempted, as far as I'm aware. Something that allows harvest of young deer but discourages it is worth at least trying.

 

[Yoteassasin]

I've done some thinking about the potential for a system to discourage harvest of younger deer. It would go something like this:

• Mandatory check in for all harvests. (Logistics of that are debatable)
• Aging can be done by biologists on the spot. 1 & 2 yr old deer are obvious
  • A dispute would be handled by tooth aging
• Killing a 1 yr old deer results in a 2 year waiting period before being eligible to apply/buy a tag. Killing a 2 yr old deer results in a 1 year waiting period before being eligible to apply/buy a tag

I'm not totally convinced it would make a great difference in hunt quality, but it seems to be a more comprehensive solution than APRs. To be completely honest it may just be the spite I feel for all of the losers making YouTube videos killing young deer and pretending that they're accomplishing something great.

Gestapo much ?
I’m not sure which group I detest more at this point , wannabe big buck shooters who want to make rules to suit their wants or attention hos who put everything on instagram . After this one y’all are neck and neck

 

[Yoteassasin]

The last thing you should do if you want to have big bucks is tell all the hunters that they can only shoot big bucks.

Ding ! Ding ! Ding !
If you want a big buck go find one . They are there

 

[littlebigtine]

Deer are not sheep. Theres a reason why you should take older age class rams(10+ yrs)and it’s the same reason why you should shoot younger age class deer(1-2 yrs) if you just want meat. Those age classes for their respective species have a very high rate of mortality by natural causes(weather and lions). I have no problem with guys harvesting young deer because the SCIENCE says that they will most likely perish that first winter on their own anyhow. That being said, breeding age class rams are 7+. Deer can be a dominant force in their gene pool by age 4. When you shoot a 7 year old ram in a herd with a 12 year old, you may as well of shot both of them. The North American Model of Conservation returned us from the brink of elk, deer, goat, and sheep extinction in the US, but is was not through APRs( antler or age). These models are loosely based on science at best and rarely have the intended outcome. Even if you have said ranch that produces BIG BUCKS in Texas because of whatever blah blah blah restrictions, who is to say that it wouldn’t have come about from some other direction. My point is that the variables are astronomical and very little of them we control. Of the ones we control only one has a real ability to move the needle.

HABITAT

You know how to protect, conserve and create HABITAT? By volunteering, stewardship and voting.

Hate to say it but there is really only one of the three presidential candidates that kind of has a hunters best interest in mind and he ain’t wearing a red or blue hat this November.

Protecting habitat will be the single biggest obstacle for conserving the big game populations of North America moving forward. Hunters need to be smart and aligned. Otherwise our small minority will be left empty handed when the rest of America asks us where all the animals are. We are wasting our time biting the hand that feeds(literally) us. Poor Fish and Game. Let’s focus on things that matter other wise our grandchildren will be like “what are antlers?”
Ill be like “we traded them for private ranches or oil rigs or solar arrays. Take your pick”

 

[mavinwa2]

Wouldn't work in WA State. Here we've had 3-point APR for past 20+ years for mule deer, eastern WA. And every season, dead illegal 2 points are found in the fields, mountains & habitat. If majority of hunters can't even count points on one side, how would they ever have the smarts to age class a buck? They wouldn't...

In an effort to improve my field judging, I've measured mule deer ear tip-2-ear tip of my last 3 trophy class bucks tagged. All were mainframe 4x4's and measured 26.5, 28.75 & 30.25" of width.
From those ear2ear measurements, I came up with my 888 rule; 8" ear, 8" between ears and 8" other ear= 24"