9MM ammo for bears defense?

[roosiebull]

Not looking for a debate. I am going to carry a compact 9MM for all of my scouting next year, moving from a Glock 29. It's in Grizz country. Those that know, what say you?

of course the vast majority of replies will be "in theory" as not many have shot a charging bear with a 9mm... I am another person who hasn't done that.... my main carry gun is a glock 20.

with that being said, i'm getting a sig p365 at some point, and will feel no different in the woods packing a 9mm with appropriate bullets vs my 10mm. the likelihood of fending off a charging blackie or lion is incredibly unlikely as it is, and then to shoot a few rounds of 9mm in said critter, I would be very confident in that ending that confrontation.... it's surely not going to "just piss them off" like I have heard people claim, and a well placed round will shut one down, just like a 10mm. for general woods carry, I think the 9 is a great option, ammo is cheap and readily available which plays into you being good with your pistol, which makes up for energy if you shoot it better.

I like my G20, but for certain applications a smaller 9 would be handy, and plenty sufficient. if I am tracking a wounded bear, I would rather not have a 9mm for my sidearm, but it's still a lot better than nothing. the couple night time not sure about hit bear track jobs I have done (both courtesy of my sis in law, haha) I brought my 500, knowing if something went south, it would be very close range.... I like the idea of a 450gr bullet with a bunch of powder behind it in that scenario, but in that type of scenario you can leave the woods, give it some time, and come back with whatever arsenal makes you feel good.

general purpose walking around the woods, I think a 9mm is a great option.... much better than the 44mag you'll quit carrying

 

[melnik]

Perhaps someone could give examples of two situations where the 10 is better than the 9:

One, both the 9 and the 10 hit the bear in exactly the same spot(s) and the 10 kills/stops the bear but the 9 doesn't.

and two, neither the 9 or the 10 hits the intended spot(s), but the 10 kills/stops the bear, but the 9 does not.

 

[Tmac]

Not looking for a debate. I am going to carry a compact 9MM for all of my scouting next year, moving from a Glock 29. It's in Grizz country. Those that know, what say you?

Better than no gun at all. Carry it with bullets designed for bear defense and be a very good shot and hope. Probably carry bear spray too. Most commonly carried handgun cartridges are underpowered for Griz. I have a 40 S&W I shoot well, it shoots 200gr. hard cast well. I’m marginally comfortable with that. I had a lightweight 44mag, I did not shoot it well. That makes my 40 a better choice for me. I suspect a 9mm with similar bullets would work similarly to my 40. Both under powered, but both able to protect you if all goes well. If you have and can shoot well a larger handgun, it is probably a much better choice with the right ammo. If I had a 10mm, I’d pick it with 220-235 grains of hard cast or penetrators (not regular fmj’s). Am looking at a Glock 20, shot a few and I shoot them well. Good luck out there.

 

[Pulv]

A lot of good thoughts and info in this forum. Solid discussion.

 

[menhaden_man]

Not looking for a debate. I am going to carry a compact 9MM for all of my scouting next year, moving from a Glock 29. It's in Grizz country. Those that know, what say you?

What ammo did you end up going with? Looks like Lehigh and Buffalo Bore are favorites here.

Also found this funny...

OP = I'm not looking for a debate
Rokslide = 7 pages of debate

 

[Trial153]

I been shooting the BB hardcast out of a FNS 9c , glock 19 and 43. So far so good.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Here is what I went with. Shot a couple of grouse with them so far.... lots of penetration. Haha!

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[menhaden_man]

Here is what I went with. Shot a couple of grouse with them so far.... lots of penetration. Haha!

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Awesome, I’ll try a box.

 

[Primetime]

I know buffalo bore makes a good round for it, I have em loaded up on the mag n thankfully haven’t had to use em

 

[slim9300]

Thanks for the idea. I always wanted a 10mm but never wanted to pack the extra weight and bulk. All my pistols are .45, 5.7x28 and one .380. None of those calibers made me feel good with bear due to lack of penetration. I picked up a Sig 365 9mm and some of that Buffalo Bore ammo today.


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[Ryan Avery]

After reading everything I can find on big bears and pistols. There seems to be no right pistol unless you are going to use something so big its totally impractical to pack in the backcountry. The 9mm with good ammo seems to hold its own. So unless I want to carry a shotgun with slugs. I will take the lightest pistol that might work. Because I have seen no concrete evidence where a 10mm, 44 mags or, 45 is stopping a bear any faster.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

^^^^ this is where all internet "Grizzly Gun" debates should end. Whatcha got is better than Whatcha don't. And a variance of +/- 70 grains and a total of 200 feet per second.....aren't gonna be legit Game Changers.

 

[Terrapin]

After reading everything I can find on big bears and pistols. There seems to be no right pistol unless you are going to use something so big its totally impractical to pack in the backcountry. The 9mm with good ammo seems to hold its own. So unless I want to carry a shotgun with slugs. I will take the lightest pistol that might work. Because I have seen no concrete evidence where a 10mm, 44 mags or, 45 is stopping a bear any faster.

That’s the exact pistol I pack as well. The other plus side is I can have one pistol for darn near everything. More trigger time & fewer holsters. Besides, most Idaho bears are giant sissies... I haven’t had to shoot one with my pistol for 15 years. I tried packing a little 380, but that seemed a little anemic.


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[Dust Rider]

I currently pack the same set up. Sig P365 with the twelve shot mag for better grip and two extra. Buffalo Bore outdoorsman +p ammo. After 26 years hunting all around SW Montana and West Yellowstone I have never had to draw my pistols on a Griz. I got tired of packing a 44mag. Sometimes I still pack a revolver but the weight of the P365 and 12 rounds of hard cast is the cats meow. its nice to have the ten round mag full of CCI snake shot for grouse.

 

[rileybassman]

After reading everything I can find on big bears and pistols. There seems to be no right pistol unless you are going to use something so big its totally impractical to pack in the backcountry. The 9mm with good ammo seems to hold its own. So unless I want to carry a shotgun with slugs. I will take the lightest pistol that might work. Because I have seen no concrete evidence where a 10mm, 44 mags or, 45 is stopping a bear any faster.

Agreed... That site that gets quoted a bunch with like 97% pistol encounter survivability has pretty good numbers for almost any pistol. Makes a case that simply fighting back and causing any sort of pain gives you a good fighting chance.

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[Jacack]

Underwood 9mm Luger +P+ Ammo 115 Grain Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator Fluted

Underwood Ammo combines their trademark power and precision with Lehigh Defense masterfully designed Xtreme Penetrator bullets - the result is one jaw...

www.midwayusa.com

These shoot very well in my 43 and penetrate well on hogs here fl so that's what I use.

 

[roosiebull]

^^^^ this is where all internet "Grizzly Gun" debates should end. Whatcha got is better than Whatcha don't. And a variance of +/- 70 grains and a total of 200 feet per second.....aren't gonna be legit Game Changers.

totally agree. that sub compact 9 is much better woods defense vs that 44 mag you don't pack because it's big and heavy.... the 9 is cool because people actually shoot them too, which means you have a pistol you actually bring, and that same pistol is one you shoot a good amount.

I bet 90+% of folks that carry big boomers in the woods are not proficient with them.

I always think of a story when these conversations come up... a few years ago, a very good friend of mine had a pretty freak encounter with a blackie, and his 9mm was 100% effective.... the bear was coming at him, he pulled his pistol and the bear was about 5 yds when he started shooting.... he got 11 rounds off, and the threat was over after the second.

he called me all fired up and I headed over there to help him find his first bear..... we looked everywhere and never found a speck of blood, haha! he almost unloaded his pistol on that bear starting at point blank, and did not hit the darn thing!

it DID work though

 

[Beendare]

From all my research a 10mm ain’t doing much over a 9mm with good bullets.

I think the problem is....not enough real world examples to research. Plus, my guess is that some of these Defensive encounters never get reported....that doesn't help as these are folks that survived the encounter.

We know from experience with heavy bullets...and heavy arrows.....that the little bit of additional penetration sometimes matters. There is no denying that heavier and more powerful is "Better". The question each guy has to ask himself,"Is that bigger and badder a waste?" that is.... if he can't shoot it fast and accurately?

"How much better?" caliber wise can be debated from here to eternity. grin

In my experience, a compact 10mm is much harder for me to shoot well over a full size. I shoot my G20 better than my compacts Shield 9mm or G19. Maybe its me, but I don't shoot compacts near as well as a full size frame....and a G26 size-fugetit. Seems I need a bigger handle for that consistent grip and I shoot the semi autos better than my big revolvers. YMMV

So its an easy decision for me as I've jumped a Brown bear in the alders at close range.....G20 for the big bears....9mm for everything else.

>>>>>>

 

[LookinforDirt]

A heavier bullet with more velocity, for bear, is better. Knowing that nearly all handguns are inadequate for killing angry, big bears, then you want the least inadequate you can get. To a point. If you can’t shoot it accurately and quickly under stress then it’s not a good choice of caliber or you need more practice until it is a good choice

It’s true, handgun bullets only destroy what they touch because of their low velocities. No hydrostatic shock like rifles. Handguns rely on penetration and shot placement. The 10mm’s 1mm larger bullet than the 9mm is insignificant. What matters is the cartridge and how fast it sends that bullet. A 10mm sends a 220gr hard cast 1200fps vs the 9mm sending a 147gr hard cast 1100fps (Underwood ammo stats). That faster moving heavier bullet is going deeper and breaking through more stuff (hide, meat, bone, organs). That’s better. Shot placement matters for all calibers. It matters a little more for a 9mm than it does a 10mm. And it matters a little more for a 10mm than a .44. And so on. Probably not quantifiable, but when you are already under gunned no matter the size handgun you bring (barring maybe the 454 Casull), it might be just enough difference to keep you alive. Take what advantage you can get.

Here is a good write up discussing everything being discussed in this thread, revolver vs semi auto, what caliber is best, how handguns kill. He talks in terms of self defense against humans but it all applies to large predators Penetration and shot placement is key to handguns.

What is the best handgun caliber for carry?

New shooters and long time shooters all ponder the age old question of "what is the best handgun caliber for defense?" The reality is, there isn't a single right answer. However, what I can do is explain my choice of calibers and my thought process in making that decision. This conversation is...

www.militaryarmschannel.org

Even if ft lbs and knock down power is all a myth, bigger cartridges with bigger bullets are better for bears if you can shoot it well. I value a semi auto over a revolver for more rounds and easier to shoot accurately. And 10mm because I shoot it a lot (and consider it the minimum of acceptable inadequate). People who don’t think more rounds are useful have not read enough about bear DLP shootings or are cherry picking the info. That said, anyone proficient and confident with a big .44, .454, .500 revolver, great choice! I’m not even that keen on a 10mm so I just can’t get behind a 9mm even though there are examples of it doing the job. If there was such a thing as a .41 or .44 in semi auto I might chose it If I found I could get 3-4 accurate shots off quickly. But I can have fun shooting 500+ rounds in a day at the range with heavy 10mm loads. Anything bigger and I doubt that would be true.

 

[slim9300]

A heavier bullet with more velocity, for bear, is better. Knowing that nearly all handguns are inadequate for killing angry, big bears, then you want the least inadequate you can get. To a point. If you can’t shoot it accurately and quickly under stress then it’s not a good choice of caliber or you need more practice until it is a good choice

It’s true, handgun bullets only destroy what they touch because of their low velocities. No hydrostatic shock like rifles. Handguns rely on penetration and shot placement. The 10mm’s under 1mm larger bullet than the 9mm is insignificant. What matters is the cartridge and how fast it sends that bullet. A 10mm sends a 220gr hard cast 1200fps vs the 9mm sending a 147gr hard cast 1100fps (Underwood ammo stats). That faster moving heavier bullet is going deeper and breaking through more stuff (hide, meat, bone, organs). That’s better. Shot placement matters for all calibers. It matters a little more for a 9mm than it does a 10mm. And it matters a little more for a 10mm than a .44. And so on. Probably not quantifiable, but when you are already under gunned no matter the size handgun you bring (barring maybe the 454 Casull), it might be just enough difference to keep you alive. Take what advantage you can get.

Here is a good write up discussing everything being discussed in this thread, revolver vs semi auto, what caliber is best, how handguns kill. He talks in terms of self defense against humans but it all applies to large predators Penetration and shot placement is key to handguns.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/best-handgun-for-36036926

Even if ft lbs and knock down power is all a myth, bigger cartridges with bigger bullets are better for bears if you can shoot it well. I value a semi auto over a revolver for more rounds and easier to shoot accurately. And 10mm because I shoot it a lot (and consider it the minimum of acceptable inadequate). People who don’t think more rounds are useful have not read enough about bear DLP shootings or are cherry picking the info. That said, anyone proficient and confident with a big .44, .454, .500 revolver, great choice! I’m not even that keen on a 10mm so I just can’t get behind a 9mm even though there are examples of it doing the job. If there was such a thing as a .41 or .44 in semi auto I might chose it If I found I could get 3-4 accurate shots off quickly. But I can have fun shooting 500+ rounds in a day at the range with heavy 10mm loads. Anything bigger and I doubt that would be true.

I bet if you looked at the penetration difference between a 9mm Buffalo Bore and the same 10mm round, it would be marginal. If anyone has any empirical tests, I would love to see them. For me I struggle to even pack a pistol. I have bow hunted the backcountry without a side arm or bear spray for nearly 20 years. Carrying a compact 9mm is bearable for certain hunts. I planned on buying a Glock 29 for years but never could pull the trigger due to the weight and size, and I already own a ton of other handguns. Glad I have an option now that I am willing to carry.


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