6mm and .223/5.56 ILLEGAL for big game in Alaska!

[Thegman]

What do most professional guides say? If you ask them what caliber they want to see clients use for moose or Caribou or brown bear are they going to suggest a 223 or a 6.5 Grendel? Or are they likely to suggest something a little stiffer?

The base recommendation should come from a broad spectrum of people with extensive and statistically relevant first-hand knowledge. It should not come from anecdotal opinions from folks that have shot three or five or ten. The ideal answer rarely exists at the extreme low end or high end of the spectrum. And the base recommendation probably shouldn't consider who gets offended. It's about killing humanely and having a reasonable chance of recovering game.

My response would probably be the same if the minimum caliber was a 30-378 weatherby. Still, I don't really have a dog in the fight in Alaska.

The state I live in requires 22 caliber centerfire and handguns having over 500 ft lb of energy.

There is one glaring problem with this: Most guides have exactly zero experience using smaller caliber cartridges on big game, anecdotal or otherwise. Their opinions are often -less- informed than those people with anecdotes from 3 or 5 or 10 animals (not to mention the 100s of examples here on a single thread).

Two weeks ago I was talking with a guide friend who was about to head out to guide moose. He said if he gets a chance to hunt his own moose he was -thinking- of using his 6.5CM instead of his 375 Ruger, at least in part because of his conversations with me. He still wasn't sure if his 6.5CM was adequate. I reminded him of what I do and insured him his 6.5CM was 100% capable of taking any moose in AK.

I think guide's opinions are mostly impressive to people without a lot of personal experience of their own and with a large over estimation of guide's level of knowledge on ballistics and terminal performance. That's just not what most guides are interested in.

In my experience, a guide's take is something like "Well, I don't know if that works, but I know this does, so that's what I want you to use". Most are get 'er done kind of guys and don't fool around much beyond what they have experience with.

 

[z987k]

There is one glaring problem with this: Most guides have exactly zero experience using smaller caliber cartridges on big game, anecdotal or otherwise. Their opinions are often -less- informed than those people with anecdotes from 3 or 5 or 10 animals (not to mention the 100s of examples here on a single thread).

Two weeks ago I was talking with a guide friend who was about to head out to guide moose. He said if he gets a chance to hunt his own moose he was -thinking- of using his 6.5CM instead of his 375 Ruger, at least in part because of his conversations with me. He still wasn't sure if his 6.5CM was adequate. I reminded him of what I do and insured him his 6.5CM was 100% capable of taking any moose in AK.

I think guide's opinions are mostly impressive to people without a lot of personal experience of their own and with a large over estimation of guide's level of knowledge on ballistics and terminal performance. That's just not what most guides are interested in.

In my experience, a guide's take is something like "Well, I don't know if that works, but I know this does, so that's what I want you to use". Most are get 'er done kind of guys and don't fool around much beyond what they have experience with.

I've got one friend I'm working on that's coming around after seeing everything die just fine with my 6.5, but another that insists we need 338's for about everything.

 

[atmat]

Guides are for finding animals, not for knowledgeable thoughts surrounding ballistics.

 

[FAAFO]

but what if my .223 has a Leopold on it??

 

[Antares]

but what if my .223 has a Leopold on it??

 

[5811]

I just love the term "knockdown power."

Did it knock you down when you shot? Do you think it gains energy in flight?!?

 

[Taudisio]

but what if my .223 has a Leopold on it??

 

[Thegman]

I just love the term "knockdown power."

Did it knock you down when you shot? Do you think it gains energy in flight?!?

Apparently the the 223 and 77TMK has a lot of knockdown power. That moose above dropped like it was hit with a bolt of lightning...

 

[AkMtnRunner]

The one correlation I've noticed from less experienced to more experienced bear guides, is the that latter care more about proficiency with the client's rifle over the size of the cartridge. If they have a minimum, it's usually a 270 or 308/30-06, probably because those are the smallest traditional hunters have ventured to use and they've seen them work adequately. The client's first shot being put in the vitals are the most important, which is why they put such a high effort in getting within 200 yards.

 

[wyosam]

Every time I read threads like this I just can't believe that people think monos kill better, arrows do more damage, match bullets blow up on shoulders, other rumors etc.... it's wild to discuss/argue week in and week out.

Pick any animal, shoot a heavy for caliber polymer tipped match bullet or a berger type variant with enough impact velocity and see what happens. Purposely aim for the shoulder if you want, it will make the damage caused much worse. A buddy of mine just shot an aggressive highland bull with a 223 and a tmk cause he was on the fence about them. Absolutely devastating, Like it is with every other animal 1800lbs and under.

I don’t see “monos kill better” very often. I think for most in mono camp, they use them because they are either required to, or because they want to. “Kill better” arguments don’t make much sense anyway. Just about anything placed well kills effectively. Increasing the size of the wound channel gives a little more wiggle room (note I said wound channel and not bore diameter).


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[jpengel]

Looking up bison draw tags and found this little tidbit …

 

[z987k]

Looking up bison draw tags and found this little tidbit …

View attachment 772575

That's been the case forever. It's the only rifle restriction Alaska has and might as well read at least 30-06 for bison.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

My buddy found out a spear at 120 fps works fine on Musk Ox. Kinda silly for Bison to have that, but all it takes is someone to get a proposal through that just becomes gospel to ADF&G after a while.

 

[Taudisio]

My buddy found out a spear at 120 fps works fine on Musk Ox. Kinda silly for Bison to have that, but all it takes is someone to get a proposal through that just becomes gospel to ADF&G after a while.
View attachment 772603

This is awesome, one question. How did he get that spear going almost 82mph?

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

This is awesome, one question. How did he get that spear going almost 82mph?

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[amassi]

This is awesome, one question. How did he get that spear going almost 82mph?

Tren
Jkjkjk


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[B_Reynolds_AK]

Ok maybe not 120 fps, but fast enough

 

[Taudisio]

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Well that was awesome. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cowdisciple]

The obvious better answer here is to ban FMJ bullets for hunting. .223 is not the problem (see bajillion page thread). Cheap 55gr FMJ projectiles are not great. If you MUST regulate something, that's the thing to regulate.

Unless you can figure out how to mandate a shooting proficiency test (I had to put 4 out of 5 muzzleloader rounds in an 8" inch circle at 50 yards in front of an ADFG rep to put in for muzzleloader tags, which seems reasonable? At least, the proficiency standard is reasonable. Wasn't easy to set up the test in SEAK.) And yes, that muzzleloader killed a moose just fine.

A scoped .223 with any reasonable hunting bullet is definitely more lethal than a muzzleloader with iron sights.

 

[cowdisciple]

Of course, if you really want to reduce wounding and loss of animals through regulatory action you'd want some kind of State mandated proficiency test and certification for anyone to shoot anything past, say, 300 yards? Even 300 might be too far.

What percentage of guys shooting their 300 win mags at animals past that range have any business doing so? Much bigger problem than .223 IMO. If you can't put 4 out of 5 in an 8" circle at range x, you shouldn't be shooting at range x regardless of the performance of the bullet.