6mm /.243 hunting success on Big Game

[00ninja00]

I think the issue you are seeing with animals running 50-100 yards after impact is more of a bullet construction issue. Being from California I am assuming you are using copper, and copper monos just dont upset like the bullets most guys in here are using.

As a side note, I had a great conversation with a game warden here in California this year about monos. We talked for 15 or 20 minutes and he said that since California forced us to use copper that he has seen a dramatic increase in the wound/loss rate and wasnt a fan of us having to use it.

Maybe you’re right, I’ve been talking to others about that too. A lot of the recovered bullet don’t spread like the old leads did. Even though they are hp, they just don’t open up on impact.

 

[ReddingArcher]

Shot placement is the highest factor in a drt. Any bullet in ribs that doesn’t disrupt the nervous system will likely not produce a Drt.
Certain monos do not upset like a cup n core but they’re designed that way. New style monos ( hammer and McGuire) are a totally different beast.

True, I have been eyeballing some of the Hammers and need to load them and see how they do.

 

[00ninja00]

True, I have been eyeballing some of the Hammers and need to load them and see how they do.

Meguires seems promising but they $$.

 

[TxLite]

So read through most of these, but admittedly not every page. So my question is:
Are these smaller calibers success (drop at poi) all mostly short range, ie under 300 yards? Has anyone taken one at say like 700y and animal just dropped like bigger calibers?

Personally I’ve only taken 1 Antelope past 300 with my 6mm creedmoor. It’s in this thread but it was drt at 463 yards with a golfball sized exit.

As others have mentioned, lots of examples within the thread

 

[TxLite]

Maybe you’re right, I’ve been talking to others about that too. A lot of the recovered bullet don’t spread like the old leads did. Even though they are hp, they just don’t open up on impact.

There is a lead free bullet called DRT that seems to act similarly to lead core bullets from what I’ve researched, but I haven’t used them. I think @Formidilosus has used them

 

[00ninja00]

Personally I’ve only taken 1 Antelope past 300 with my 6mm creedmoor. It’s in this thread but it was drt at 463 yards with a golfball sized exit.

As others have mentioned, lots of examples within the thread

That’s awesome! Pretty impressive at almost 500y. Nice!

 

[00ninja00]

There is a lead free bullet called DRT that seems to act similarly to lead core bullets from what I’ve researched, but I haven’t used them. I think @Formidilosus has used them

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Unclecroc]

True, I have been eyeballing some of the Hammers and need to load them and see how they do.

I’ve got quite a bit of experience with em and they’re great. I bet between me and others I hunt with we’ve taken 50 head of game now with them.

 

[Poe]

So read through most of these, but admittedly not every page. So my question is:
Are these smaller calibers success (drop at poi) all mostly short range, ie under 300 yards? Has anyone taken one at say like 700y and animal just dropped like bigger calibers?

What I see from reading the kills in this thread is that shot placement seems to be the biggest determining factor in how far a animal travels after being shot and range doesn’t seem to make a real big difference. If you keep the bullets above there terminal velocity with a cns hit they drop the same as with the big guns. If you put one behind the shoulder through the lungs the seen to run 40-70 yards on average.

 

[Speaks]

Thanks! I just figured most wouldn’t take animas long range with a 6mm as per what u said above. I’m curious because, where I live up north north NorCal, unless on private property and line sitting, we mostly do 600+, and I’ve seen so many 260 shots, my personal 260 as well, all placed well but a few blacktails and mostly all the bears kept going 50-100y before they dropped. So I was curious if smaller 6mm had the same issues in the longer range as well.

I dont really think distance is the right metric to use at least independent from MV for any given bullet. You could have a 6cm with a lite load and short barrel shooting 2600 and you could also have one with a hot load and longer barrel shooting over 3100. Their effective range will be totally different.

Now if you are setting aside 6CM and just asking about 6mm the 6UM and 6PRC are 1k yard guns with the right bullet and load and there are plenty of examples on this site to prove it.

I have zero experience with lead free CA legal bullets though so cant provide any input on it. Though I am looking for a good 223 option to go after some yotes on a local WMA here that is non-tox only.

And none of this is my experience with 6mm at long distance. I can vouch for my experience with 77TMKs at medium distance but thats about it.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Thanks! I just figured most wouldn’t take animas long range with a 6mm as per what u said above. I’m curious because, where I live up north north NorCal, unless on private property and line sitting, we mostly do 600+, and I’ve seen so many 260 shots, my personal 260 as well, all placed well but a few blacktails and mostly all the bears kept going 50-100y before they dropped. So I was curious if smaller 6mm had the same issues in the longer range as well.

Unless you are hitting the central nervous system, a “death sprint” of 50-100 yards is normal for any deer. This is assuming a “good hit” - double lung or heart shot. The deer is going to take about 10 seconds to die. If you don’t want a death sprint, then “anchor” it with a CNS hit or break both shoulders. And it’s true regardless of distance at which you shoot them. But… I have seen deer that were immobilized by a shoulder shot or CNS hit that weren’t dead until I cut their throats or shot them again. I prefer a lower double lung shot right along the leg crease to a higher shot.

This deer took a 117-grain .257 bullet going approximately 2800 FPS impact velocity and still made it approximately 100 yards - spewing blood like a fountain the entire way - before crashing to the ground and falling another 50 yards down a hill. Anyone who would complain about this bullet’s performance is a bit strange to me.

 

[JD Jones]

6 creed
Buck 1: 108 eldm 195yds right behind leg crease. Dropped on spot
Doe: 108 eldm 110yds. Neck. Flipped/dropped in spot
Buck 2: 108 eldm 115yds. Right behind leg crease. Violently dropped on the spot.

6arc ~250 yards. dropped on spot. 108eldm


I'll be playing with the big TMK when I can get them but after 5 deer and countless pigs... the 108 eldm has never let me down

 

[liv3mind]

Interesting one for me, I have never had this kind of destruction personally, between baseball and softball size hole. meat harvest for me, control on a farm locally, exit hole 108eldm, 30y shot downward angle. Yearling WT.

 

[Formidilosus]

Interesting one for me, I have never had this kind of destruction personally, between baseball and softball size hole. meat harvest for me, control on a farm locally, exit hole 108eldm, 30y shot downward angle. Yearling WT.

That’s what a yawing bullet looks like.

 

[liv3mind]

That’s what a yawing bullet looks like.

Cool that would explain the irregular shape, I guess I forgot to note above that the impact velocity would have been right at 2500

 

[Formidilosus]

Interesting one for me, I have never had this kind of destruction personally, between baseball and softball size hole. meat harvest for me, control on a farm locally, exit hole 108eldm, 30y shot downward angle. Yearling WT.

Here is a yawing bullet and the resulting wound created. I’ll try to find the pictures all the way through the deer- a sideways bullet profile is very obvious.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Interesting one for me, I have never had this kind of destruction personally, between baseball and softball size hole. meat harvest for me, control on a farm locally, exit hole 108eldm, 30y shot downward angle. Yearling WT.

This is an exit from a 115 Berger. Saw more than one instance of exits consistent with what appeared to be potential yawing/tumbling, just as Form told me I likely would.

This one was an extreme downhill angle shooting over top of the animal.

 

[liv3mind]

This is an exit from a 115 Berger. Saw more than one instance of exits consistent with what appeared to be potential yawing/tumbling, just as Form told me I likely would.

This one was an extreme downhill angle shooting over top of the animal.

View attachment 987207

Interesting, @Formidilosus could it be attributed to deflection on bone coming in ? Linked to the angle of the shot? Stability issue linked to twist? I'm interested in what caused the projectile to yaw or tumble at a speed you would expect it to expand. I don't have a huge personal sample size, but have a few dozen white tail harvests (mostly 73eldm, a couple 77otm, 3 108eldm, and 2 103eldx and a few .308 odds and ends) and this is the first that appears to have behaved this way.

 

[Formidilosus]

Interesting, @Formidilosus could it be attributed to deflection on bone coming in ?

Yes. But with the deflection causing the nose to close up or slightly fold over generally.

Linked to the angle of the shot?

Yes- but with angle causing the nose to close up or slightly fold over generally.

Stability issue linked to twist?

No, not usually.

I'm interested in what caused the projectile to yaw or tumble at a speed you would expect it to expand.

All pointed bullets yaw in tissue unless they expand and create a relatively wide and flat front to stabilize themselves. The CG is past midpoint on the bullet (rear end weighs more), so they want to yaw and travel base forward. Yawing bullets generally create excellent wounds, however yawing is unpredictable at times. Rapid fragmentation from the front is about the most consistent and repeatable way for a bullet to upset.

I don't have a huge personal sample size, but have a few dozen white tail harvests (mostly 73eldm, a couple 77otm, 3 108eldm, and 2 103eldx and a few .308 odds and ends) and this is the first that appears to have behaved this way.

It happens with all bullets at some point. Monos like Barnes TSX/TTSX, and Hornady CX this happens relatively often to. Most don’t see it when it happens because those bullets don’t fragment so they tend to exit. That’s generally where the larger than thumb size wounds from standard monos come from.
As for why with the ELD-X- again, it just seems to be tied back to the material the tip in Hornady ELD-M and X are made from. It’s brittle and seems to every once in a while break off creating what is functionally a FMJ… sort of. Now most of the time even when that happens, the bullet still upsets or yaws and good damage is created; sometimes not though.

Again this happens with all bullets at some point. The only reason this is being discussed more in this forum recently, is because tipped match bullets did not historically show the behavior. ELD-M’s do show it once in a while, and it appears that if everything goes right (wrong), then ELD-X too.

For those reading: don’t think your -insert whatever- “hunting” bullet doesn’t do it; the vast majority of “hunting bullets” are far worse in this behavior. Which is why those shooting at distance tend to favor “non hunting bullets”. When you actually see legitimate terminal ballistics testing conducted with large sample sizes, bullet failures are nearly always a failure to upset at all- not “blow up” and fail to penetrate.

 

[Poe]

Interesting, @Formidilosus could it be attributed to deflection on bone coming in ? Linked to the angle of the shot? Stability issue linked to twist? I'm interested in what caused the projectile to yaw or tumble at a speed you would expect it to expand. I don't have a huge personal sample size, but have a few dozen white tail harvests (mostly 73eldm, a couple 77otm, 3 108eldm, and 2 103eldx and a few .308 odds and ends) and this is the first that appears to have behaved this way.

I was listening to a podcast Arron Davidson did and he did a pretty good job of explaining why some bullets tend to tumble. The just of it was with a typical expanding bullet the tip starts to fail on impact creating a flat face and giving the bullet shoulder stabilization holding the bullet straight through the target. The harder tip of the hollow point match type bullets does not flatten out as easy on impact and without the shoulder stabilization the bullet becomes unstable and will start to tumble. Thats just the quick notes and I may have got some parts wrong. It was a pretty interesting listen.