6 ARC ammunition

[CoMulies]

I literally just posted a 688 yard kill with a .243… there are mounds of evidence in this thread that 6mm will kill elk at extended ranges and you just keep digging in

 

[wabash503]

I literally just posted a 688 yard kill with a .243… there are mounds of evidence in this thread that 6mm will kill elk at extended ranges and you just keep digging in

I do, because I understand that you need a margin of error at those distances that no one wants to acknowledge is far greater with a 223 or 6 arc or even a 243.

You guys seen to think just because a few people have been successful at it, that it is the best thing out there, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

For every luck shot (and I stick by that characterization), there are many more instances of failure. You just didn't want acknowledge that. And that's fine, but for the random guy that reads this thread in the future, I want then to at least question this non sense.

There is far more evidence that this isn't a good idea. If you truly respect elk as a game animal, and you want to actually be an ethical hunter, than you would base your cartridge decision on what is best to give them a quick kill. And 223 and 6 arc at 600y is not it

And I am firm on that. Call it dug in if you'd like, but I've read a lot of the other things the posters on here have said in other threads. I'm confident they are speaking out of ignorance, and that comes from a greater experience and understanding than they have.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I do, because I understand that you need a margin of error at those distances that no one wants to acknowledge is far greater with a 223 or 6 arc or even a 243.

You guys seen to think just because a few people have been successful at it, that it is the best thing out there, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

For every luck shot (and I stick by that characterization), there are many more instances of failure. You just didn't want acknowledge that. And that's fine, but for the random guy that reads this thread in the future, I want then to at least question this non sense.

There is far more evidence that this isn't a good idea. If you truly respect elk as a game animal, and you want to actually be an ethical hunter, than you would base your cartridge decision on what is best to give them a quick kill. And 223 and 6 arc at 600y is not it

And I am firm on that. Call it dug in if you'd like, but I've read a lot of the other things the posters on here have said in other threads. I'm confident they are speaking out of ignorance, and that comes from a greater experience and understanding than they have.

Pretty wild assumptions man, there are a lot of guys on this forum shooting 1-5k rounds of ammo a year and doing some pretty incredible things with rifles at distance. I don’t have the time to currently practice as much as I would like so I self impose limits of 500 or less on live game. 90% of the time I hunt primitive weapons and am under 100 yards… yet it’s not group think to know that bullet designed to rapidly expand at 1800 fps will do that.
This whole assumption that people cannot be accurate at 600 yards and that a larger caliber with more recoil is necessary to account for margins of error is just telling on yourself. Sounds like You believe that because you can’t consistently make sub MOA hits on a 600 yard target. Also if the hits are marginal how is the larger caliber just magically making up for said marginal hits? And also if marginal hits with a larger caliber will still result in just wounding? How is that “ethical”

 

[amassi]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tobe_B]

There once was a fudd from wabash.
A big elk he wanted to smash!
Into the field he went, his knowledge was trash.

1500 ftlbs is needed to slay!
The elk got shot 4 times that day.
And still managed to run away.
Because Barnes bullets are gay.

Listen. Some of us on here are reading through this forum while attempting to rock babies to sleep. The abrupt laughter from stuff like this just sets that back. So thanks for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HairyScandinavian]

I never could figure out this "margin of error" thing people like to throw out. How many 30 caliber TTSX does it take to kill an Elk with gut shots if it takes 4 in the vitals? I see it all the time, not just referring to you Wabash, like a 300 WM kills them if you shoot them in the toe with it? Gut shots are gut shots no matter the wallop, meat hits are meat hits no matter the wallop. At least with a fragmenting bullet rather than a bonded or copper you might get a fragment to sever an artery under the spine or something. Put any cartridge through the lungs and the animal dies PDQ, it's not that hard to imagine.

 

[KurtR]

Wallop factor nothing matters more

 

[wabash503]

Pretty wild assumptions man, there are a lot of guys on this forum shooting 1-5k rounds of ammo a year and doing some pretty incredible things with rifles at distance. I don’t have the time to currently practice as much as I would like so I self impose limits of 500 or less on live game. 90% of the time I hunt primitive weapons and am under 100 yards… yet it’s not group think to know that bullet designed to rapidly expand at 1800 fps will do that.
This whole assumption that people cannot be accurate at 600 yards and that a larger caliber with more recoil is necessary to account for margins of error is just telling on yourself. Sounds like You believe that because you can’t consistently make sub MOA hits on a 600 yard target. Also if the hits are marginal how is the larger caliber just magically making up for said marginal hits? And also if marginal hits with a larger caliber will still result in just wounding? How is that “ethical”

This is laughable.... To tell me I'm making assumptions, and then the entire second half of your post is exactly what you're accusing me of.

First off, I'm not saying I have more experience than everyone of RS... But based on what I've heard and seen from the pro 223/6 arc to 600y crowd in this thread, I know that I have more knowledge and experience.

I don't think you guys are hearing me. Su I'll try to be more explicit with this post.

First, I'm not saying the shot can't be made. What I am saying is it's an incredibly lucky one, if if does happen at those distances. For starters, go check out just Erik Corina's YouTube channel...a lot of good stuff on there about long range. He's not the only guy, winning in the wind is good too, so is little crow gunworks, to have a couple others. But I'm singling out Erik, because he is a world class shooter.

And Erik, if you watch his recent videos shooting matches in the wind, struggled to maintain a sub moa group, with an amazing gun, and a proper long range cartridge meticulously hand loaded.

And you're trying to tell me this bunch of guys here know better than him what it takes to be that precise... By choosing a 6 arc or 223 at 600y?

I touched on it earlier, but there are so many factors that go into a 600y shot, that you guys admit, and I agree, would have to be darn near perfect on shot placement, to drop an elk at that distance. Range, air temp, elevation, wind, shot angle, animal movement, animal position, etc... And you are screaming that it's ethical, when that 223 in just a 10 mph wind is going to drift 4 ft in a perfect wind?

I'm not buying that. Wind isn't perfect... It's inconsistent, it varies along the path, there are updrafts, downdrafts, gusts, wind dies down... All that can be going on at the same time along the path. With a bullet at susceptible to drift. It is not ethical.

And you guys keep talking smack about my 308 story. Those were all double lung shots. Shots that you guys would think are perfect, if you placed them with your 223 or 6 arc. They gouged 2" would channels through that animal... Which isn't a knock on the 308. It shows you just how tough an elk is. I've also seen a high should 7 PRC knock an elk down, and he got up and walked away. I've seen an elk take 3x 300 win mag in the vitals before going down. The wound channel from a perfectly placed 6 arc or 223 at 600y (which these shots were at - 550-640) would not create the same terminal effects on those animals.

You also don't seem to know that energy plays a factor... Not you personally, but the group. You want the bullet to carry that energy and then dump it in the vitals. That is what sustains massive internal damage to the animal. Massive, even at 600y.

I'm.not saying your 223 or 6 ARC wouldn't do a good job at closer range. But OP, said out to 600y. And that's really where I have a huge issue, with this use case.

These are not assumptions. These are facts. Ones that this group of posters wants to talk around or ignore, or insult. That doesn't make my statements any less true.

 

[wabash503]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you think ethics have no place in hunting, you shouldn't be doing it.

 

[wabash503]

I've said enough in this thread. Last post. For anyone that read this far and thinks I'm wrong. Watch this video. 77 TMK, at point blank range on a simulated elk. Then ask yourself, how likely is it that you might hit the shoulder or bone when hunting an elk? This video should be enough to make a better choice.

** Mic drop**

 

[KurtR]

Are those the wallop factor boys

 

[The Guide]

This is laughable.... To tell me I'm making assumptions, and then the entire second half of your post is exactly what you're accusing me of.

First off, I'm not saying I have more experience than everyone of RS... But based on what I've heard and seen from the pro 223/6 arc to 600y crowd in this thread, I know that I have more knowledge and experience.

I don't think you guys are hearing me. Su I'll try to be more explicit with this post.

First, I'm not saying the shot can't be made. What I am saying is it's an incredibly lucky one, if if does happen at those distances. For starters, go check out just Erik Corina's YouTube channel...a lot of good stuff on there about long range. He's not the only guy, winning in the wind is good too, so is little crow gunworks, to have a couple others. But I'm singling out Erik, because he is a world class shooter.

And Erik, if you watch his recent videos shooting matches in the wind, struggled to maintain a sub moa group, with an amazing gun, and a proper long range cartridge meticulously hand loaded.

And you're trying to tell me this bunch of guys here know better than him what it takes to be that precise... By choosing a 6 arc or 223 at 600y?

I touched on it earlier, but there are so many factors that go into a 600y shot, that you guys admit, and I agree, would have to be darn near perfect on shot placement, to drop an elk at that distance. Range, air temp, elevation, wind, shot angle, animal movement, animal position, etc... And you are screaming that it's ethical, when that 223 in just a 10 mph wind is going to drift 4 ft in a perfect wind?

I'm not buying that. Wind isn't perfect... It's inconsistent, it varies along the path, there are updrafts, downdrafts, gusts, wind dies down... All that can be going on at the same time along the path. With a bullet at susceptible to drift. It is not ethical.

And you guys keep talking smack about my 308 story. Those were all double lung shots. Shots that you guys would think are perfect, if you placed them with your 223 or 6 arc. They gouged 2" would channels through that animal... Which isn't a knock on the 308. It shows you just how tough an elk is. I've also seen a high should 7 PRC knock an elk down, and he got up and walked away. I've seen an elk take 3x 300 win mag in the vitals before going down. The wound channel from a perfectly placed 6 arc or 223 at 600y (which these shots were at - 550-640) would not create the same terminal effects on those animals.

You also don't seem to know that energy plays a factor... Not you personally, but the group. You want the bullet to carry that energy and then dump it in the vitals. That is what sustains massive internal damage to the animal. Massive, even at 600y.

I'm.not saying your 223 or 6 ARC wouldn't do a good job at closer range. But OP, said out to 600y. And that's really where I have a huge issue, with this use case.

These are not assumptions. These are facts. Ones that this group of posters wants to talk around or ignore, or insult. That doesn't make my statements any less true.

Where are you getting your wind drift numbers because they are wildly off at almost 2x the drift of the actual numbers for the bullets and velocities that people are using. My 223 with a AAC 77tmk loaded ammo is running 2714 fps and will drift 27" at 600 yards not 48".

You seem to be relying on other people's opinions and experiences and not your own. Most of us are referring to our own actual verified experiences because we have shot these shots with our own rifles and ammunition at the distances we've discussed. I don't personally feel that some of these cartridges are perfect all weather longer range cartridges. I frequently hunt elk in below zero weather with high humidity (think extremely cold and snowing) that lowers your velocity at range due to air density. I've killed 20+ elk from 400 to 800 yards and another 15+ from 200 to 400 yards. I kinda know how to kill an elk. People like you who have your meltdowns over what other people use to hunt with make me want to shoot smaller and smaller cartridges just to prove that it is done easily. Elk don't wear armor. I guess I'll have to bring 2 rifles on my late season cow hunt so I can shoot one with my 22 ARC or my 6mm ARC and one with the 7mm Backcountry for my article. Should be a good side by side comparison...

Jay

 

[Dave0317]

This is laughable.... To tell me I'm making assumptions, and then the entire second half of your post is exactly what you're accusing me of.

First off, I'm not saying I have more experience than everyone of RS... But based on what I've heard and seen from the pro 223/6 arc to 600y crowd in this thread, I know that I have more knowledge and experience.

I don't think you guys are hearing me. Su I'll try to be more explicit with this post.

First, I'm not saying the shot can't be made. What I am saying is it's an incredibly lucky one, if if does happen at those distances. For starters, go check out just Erik Corina's YouTube channel...a lot of good stuff on there about long range. He's not the only guy, winning in the wind is good too, so is little crow gunworks, to have a couple others. But I'm singling out Erik, because he is a world class shooter.

And Erik, if you watch his recent videos shooting matches in the wind, struggled to maintain a sub moa group, with an amazing gun, and a proper long range cartridge meticulously hand loaded.

And you're trying to tell me this bunch of guys here know better than him what it takes to be that precise... By choosing a 6 arc or 223 at 600y?

I touched on it earlier, but there are so many factors that go into a 600y shot, that you guys admit, and I agree, would have to be darn near perfect on shot placement, to drop an elk at that distance. Range, air temp, elevation, wind, shot angle, animal movement, animal position, etc... And you are screaming that it's ethical, when that 223 in just a 10 mph wind is going to drift 4 ft in a perfect wind?

I'm not buying that. Wind isn't perfect... It's inconsistent, it varies along the path, there are updrafts, downdrafts, gusts, wind dies down... All that can be going on at the same time along the path. With a bullet at susceptible to drift. It is not ethical.

And you guys keep talking smack about my 308 story. Those were all double lung shots. Shots that you guys would think are perfect, if you placed them with your 223 or 6 arc. They gouged 2" would channels through that animal... Which isn't a knock on the 308. It shows you just how tough an elk is. I've also seen a high should 7 PRC knock an elk down, and he got up and walked away. I've seen an elk take 3x 300 win mag in the vitals before going down. The wound channel from a perfectly placed 6 arc or 223 at 600y (which these shots were at - 550-640) would not create the same terminal effects on those animals.

You also don't seem to know that energy plays a factor... Not you personally, but the group. You want the bullet to carry that energy and then dump it in the vitals. That is what sustains massive internal damage to the animal. Massive, even at 600y.

I'm.not saying your 223 or 6 ARC wouldn't do a good job at closer range. But OP, said out to 600y. And that's really where I have a huge issue, with this use case.

These are not assumptions. These are facts. Ones that this group of posters wants to talk around or ignore, or insult. That doesn't make my statements any less true.

I think there is a few things getting miscommunicated here.

- A very regular theme on Rokslide is the exact stuff you have mentioned about the skill it takes to shoot longer range and the few hunters that put in the work to achieve that. (One of many of that type of post: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/)

- You keep referencing .223 at 600. Everyone here keeps saying 1800 fps minimum. That puts the .223 at 450 depending on the environment. Even the 6 arc may be not at that velocity depending on the actual MV of a particular gun in a given environment. A short barrel at sea level, probably won’t make it.

- Foot pounds are not a wounding mechanism.
If I put a guy in a bullet proof vest and he takes a 44mag bullet, vest stops it, and he lives, he absorbed hundreds of foot pounds of energy and may have a bruise. Another guy, with no vest takes a lowly .380 to the chest, he will likely die. It’s the tissue damage not the energy.


I would absolutely say that a well placed 6 ELD M at over 1800fps is better than a .308 copper bullet at less than it’s required expansion velocity. Which it appears is what was happening in the Elk incident you have reference a few times.


Before you even entered this thread, several guys made some of the exact points you are claiming that rokslide is ignoring. He asked about shots within 600 with a 6 arc and 20 inch barrel. Someone mentions the velocity threshold. Couple guys emphasize shot placement and practice.

What sent it off the rails was your comment about a 1500 ft lbs recommendation. Which is silly. Foot pounds don’t kill, your .308 was probably well under that number in your story. Even if you disagree about using a bullet a few grains lighter and few hundredths of an inch smaller, lots of stuff gets killed at various distances with a lot less energy than that.

 

[Forkasauras]

I've said enough in this thread. Last post. For anyone that read this far and thinks I'm wrong. Watch this video. 77 TMK, at point blank range on a simulated elk. Then ask yourself, how likely is it that you might hit the shoulder or bone when hunting an elk? This video should be enough to make a better choice.

** Mic drop**

*Beef Knuckle has entered the chat*

 

[Forkasauras]

I've said enough in this thread. Last post. For anyone that read this far and thinks I'm wrong. Watch this video. 77 TMK, at point blank range on a simulated elk. Then ask yourself, how likely is it that you might hit the shoulder or bone when hunting an elk? This video should be enough to make a better choice.

** Mic drop**

Meanwhile, I posted a pic of an actual elk shoulder a 109 eldm from a 6 arc exploded. The offside shoulder. That was after passing through the other shoulder at the 'beef knuckle':

A rib:

And a rib on the offside:

This was about 2400 fps impact velocity. At 10000 ft were we were hunting, the impact velocity would be over 1900 fps. If you think 1900 fps will open a 30 cal copper bullet, but not a tipped match bullet, your are beyond education. Also, your video is moving the goal posts. First it was they will pencil through, now it is they will blow up. This kind of flip flopping happens often when you don't know what you are talking about. But this might be your biggest self own yet. That 338 pencils through after hitting that beef knuckle.

 

[Tobe_B]

We recovered them and they expanded 1.8x...and were just under the hide on the offside, so they did their job and dumped all their energy in the vitals. A 223 or 6 arc at those distances would just pencil through.

Do you recognize the difference between expansion and fragmentation? I’m not trying to be an ass, just continue a healthy debate and discussion. By measuring the left over bullet size you do get a rough measurement for expansion. But did you weigh that bullet to know how much of it was intact?

I don’t like mushrooming bullets. I personally want a bullet to fragment and break up upon entry. If my bullet does its job then there shouldn’t be enough left in one piece to measure its expansion. I’d prefer to find a the biggest piece left and weigh it to see how much passed through the vitals. That in my opinion is better form or measure energy.

If your bullet is intact it did not in-fact dump its energy within the animal. Rather it met resistance to the point of slowing down and stopping. If my bullet is in many tiny pieces imbedded in the vitals of that animal, then those vitals are going to quit doing their job and the animal will die. None of this is cartridge related, all bullet construction related. And none of this is relevant to the “energy” of a bullet. Merely the speed at which it is designed to fragment or upset.

Having shot elk with both my .300wm with cup and core bullets and my 6mm arc with fast fragmenting bullets, I’ll take the latter of the two. Those animals all died quicker and in place where I shot them. I can shoot my 6mm arc with far greater accuracy than I can my .300wm. I shoot it more frequently for a fraction of the cost.

You keep stating that energy is a must. Your dad shot an elk at what I’m guessing to be 475 yards, based on other posted you’ve made, with a .308 shooting 168gr ttsx bullets. You had the energy you say you need. Yet that animal did not die with the first round. So what went wrong? You double lung an elk with the first round and it doesn’t die, so that animal must be tougher? That makes zero logical sense, not one single game animal on this earth can live with holes in its lungs. They may run a ways, but they will die.

Also, can you explain what a marginal shot placement is? Then explain how calibers can overcome that? I think everyone understands the effects of wind on bullets., some probably more than others. According to my ballistics calculator a .308 shooting 168gr ttsx has approximately 4.11 moa of wind drift at 600 yards and a vertical correction of 13.54 given my atmospheric conditions, with a velocity of 1817 fps. My 6mm ARC has 3.60 moa of wind drift and 12.72 moa of vertical correction, with a velocity of 1862 fps. All with the same 10mph 90° cross wind. I clearly don’t have your true velocity, so I have to assume that based on what google can provide me. But I do have my velocity based on a chrono and have verified those adjustments in field position shooting on MOA targets.

So what does a .308 with 18.2 ft-lbs of recoil offer, over my 6mm ARC with 9.9 ft-lbs of recoil? And you can’t use energy in your answer. You already proved in your own argument that 1600 ft-lbs was insufficient in offering a single round kill shot on a bull elk within the 600yd self imposed limit of the discussion.

 

[Forkasauras]

What ammunition would you recommend for elk within 600 yards using a 20" barrel in 6 ARC?

To answer the OPs post, I shoot the 20 inch howa. Factory ammo is anemic as it is loaded for gas guns. Even at 10000 ft, I would probably not shoot an elk at 600 yrds. I shoot the 109 eldms and buy them from GA precision. They do everything the 108s do, just better and I did not notice any difference in muzzle velocity or pressure using the same poweder charge.

I get right around 2700 fps with 29.8 grs lever evolution. This is a very compressed load. Hornady as 31.5 listed as max, but in my hands that fills the case into the neck.

I have switched to TAC and that seems to be doing better in the short barrel being a faster powder. 28 grs produces 2740 fps at muzzle. More than enough gas to get it done at 600 yrds on the mountian.

Now, Blackarc munitions is working on 6 arc loads in the NAS3 cases. They should be way faster than any other factroy load. Just have to wait for them to become avialable.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

According to my ballistics calculator a .308 shooting 168gr ttsx has approximately 4.11 moa of wind drift at 600 yards and a vertical correction of 13.54 given my atmospheric conditions, with a velocity of 1817 fps. My 6mm ARC has 3.60 moa of wind drift and 12.72 moa of vertical correction, with a velocity of 1862 fps. All with the same 10mph 90° cross wind.

Quoting this so homecheese reads it again.

Crazy when you put the numbers to things isn't it?