6.5 creed vs 30-06

[bmart2622]

I could tell you how an Accubond would do

 

[11Justin22]

I could tell you how an Accubond would do

Then double that wound and you have your answer

 

[bmart2622]

So a thinner jacketed, more frangible, more rapidly expanding bullet would bust thru bone better than a controlled expansion bullet?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Hey Form, since I have very little experience with rapid expanding more frangible bullets and you seem to have quite a bit, I have an honest question for you. How would a 175eldx or 175 Elite Hunter out of a 7mm PRC do on the knuckle of a bull elk at say 50 yds? You think it would still be ok? I want to build a 7mm PRC but am not sold on the Bergers of Eldx

I’ve seen a few bulls shot with 147 ELD-Ms in the shoulder at under a hundred yards. I shot this bull just above the shoulder knuckle and broke the off side scapula as well at around 80 ish yards. We have been lied to by gun writers for years!

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[bmart2622]

Hey Ryan, do you kmow what the MV of that round/rifle was?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Hey Ryan, do you kmow what the MV of that round/rifle was?

3040

 

[Ryan Avery]

My wife shot this bear with a 108 ELD-M at 50 ish yards. The bullet when through the bear and through both sides of the steel bait barrel. Like I said we have been lied too!!

 

[mtnwrunner]

Spike bull, 90 yards, 6.5 x 284, 147 eldm, through the shoulder. Never took a step.
I've got a variety of 6.5 cartridges including a creedmoor and they all use the 147 eldm. Absolute killing bullet.

Randy

 

[Tannerlowe]

Split the difference…6.5-06 a square

 

[Laramie]

I’ve seen a few bulls shot with 147 ELD-Ms in the shoulder at under a hundred yards. I shot this bull just above the shoulder knuckle and broke the off side scapula as well at around 80 ish yards. We have been lied to by gun writers for years!

I don't think we have been lied to. What the writers have recommended works well. However, the development of some of these new cartridges and bullet designs obviously has something new to it that wasn't around 20 years ago. I have 3 bullets we have pulled from elk shoulders through the years. Not much left of them but the base. Only put calipers on one... .24. Maybe they shot too far, maybe something weird happened. Idk but bullet failures have a absolutely happened in the past.

This thread does have me curious enough to do some testing though. I won't be shooting an elk with a .223 any time soon but I will do some penetration tests side by side with my son's 6.5prc and my 30-06 this spring. I'll circle back and share what I find.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I don't think we have been lied to. What the writers have recommended works well. However, the development of some of these new cartridges and bullet designs obviously has something new to it that wasn't around 20 years ago. I have 3 bullets we have pulled from elk shoulders through the years. Not much left of them but the base. Only put calipers on one... .24. Maybe they shot too far, maybe something weird happened. Idk but bullet failures have a absolutely happened in the past.

This thread does have me curious enough to do some testing though. I won't be shooting an elk with a .223 any time soon but I will do some penetration tests side by side with my son's 6.5prc and my 30-06 this spring. I'll circle back and share what I find.

No lied to is the correct term. Growing up I clearly remember hunting mags telling us you have to use a controlled expansion or partition on elk then they would show you that pretty little mushroom. I remember reading how a Ballistic tip would explode on an elk shoulder under 100 yards. It’s the same BS today, don’t shoot elk in the shoulder with a Berger bullet, don’t take a hard quartering shot with a ELD-M. It’s all BS to sell a “premium” hunting bullet. Kind of like all scopes hold zero.

Can you imagine a magazine publishing a review on killing elk at 400 yards with a .223 or doing a scope drop test, me either.

 

[Formidilosus]

Hey Form, since I have very little experience with rapid expanding more frangible bullets and you seem to have quite a bit, I have an honest question for you. How would a 175eldx or 175 Elite Hunter out of a 7mm PRC do on the knuckle of a bull elk at say 50 yds? You think it would still be ok? I want to build a 7mm PRC but am not sold on the Bergers of Eldx

Barring something unusual, no issues.


This is how ridiculous the whole thing is- this is the thickest bone in the front of an animal- in this case a bull moose. It was completely separated and the bullet penetrated through the heart, both lungs, the exit side ribs and ended somewhere in the opposite shoulder.




The bullet? A 77gr Tipped Matchking from a 223 at 167 yards.

I'd wonder how a 160 accubond in that scenario would do as well. Actually at 50 yards I'd just not shoot one there but be curious to hear from Form.

Again barring a freak occurrence, no issues. Although unlike most would think, a bonded high weight retention, large frontal diameter bullet is more effected by that than a heavy for caliber fragmenting bullet. As the bullet fragments, the frontal diameter is smaller and therefore presents less drag than the bullet that stays together.

 

[gerry35]

No lied to is the correct term. Growing up I clearly remember hunting mags telling us you have to use a controlled expansion or partition on elk then they would show you that pretty little mushroom. I remember reading how a Ballistic tip would explode on an elk shoulder under 100 yards. It’s the same BS today, don’t shoot elk in the shoulder with a Berger bullet, don’t take a hard quartering shot with a ELD-M. It’s all BS to sell a “premium” hunting bullet. Kind of like all scopes hold zero.

Can you imagine a magazine publishing a review on killing elk at 400 yards with a .223 or doing a scope drop test, me either.

I hear what you are saying and mostly agree but will offer this experience from 25ish years ago. Medium black bear with a 30-06 and a 150 gr Ballistic Tip, shot at about 50 yards, slightly quartered away, it shredded the lungs and stopped on the inside of the far side shoulder blade. About 10-12" penetration with no bones hit until shoulder blade. Killed quick but I didn't use Ballistic Tips for a long time because of that. Then I read that they redesigned them so I tried them again and love them now. I bet the current 150 gr Ballistic Tip would probably exit with the same shot these days.

So there may have been some truth to what they were saying back in the day. It's interesting before modern controlled expanding bullets the old timers before my time used heavy for caliber soft points to make sure they penetrated far enough. Looks like we have come full circle, only now the heavy soft points are heavy, sleek high b.c. cup and core bullets.

 

[Formidilosus]

So a thinner jacketed, more frangible, more rapidly expanding bullet would bust thru bone better than a controlled expansion bullet?

Yes. In some cases, they do. Frontal diameter matters. That heavy for caliber (which means long) fragmenting bullet at all times has a smaller frontal diameter trying to get through, than the controlled expansion bullets.

 

[Formidilosus]

Honesty the majority of elk I killed with my 3006, which is probably around a dozen, was with cheap CoreLokts when I was younger and then a couple with 165gr Ballistic tip and a couple with 165gr Accubond. If I still shot a 3006 it would be a 165gr Accubond or 180 Accubond OR Id try the 175gr Terminal Ascent if they werent non existent

There are multiple bullets in the 6.5CM that create noticeably and measurably larger wounds than any of those, especially the Temrinal Ascent.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I hear what you are saying and mostly agree but will offer this experience from 25ish years ago. Medium black bear with a 30-06 and a 150 gr Ballistic Tip, shot at about 50 yards, slightly quartered away, it shredded the lungs and stopped on the inside of the far side shoulder blade. About 10-12" penetration with no bones hit until shoulder blade. Killed quick but I didn't use Ballistic Tips for a long time because of that. Then I read that they redesigned them so I tried them again and love them now. I bet the current 150 gr Ballistic Tip would probably exit with the same shot these days.

So there may have been some truth to what they were saying back in the day. It's interesting before modern controlled expanding bullets the old timers before my time used heavy for caliber soft points to make sure they penetrated far enough. Looks like we have come full circle, only now the heavy soft points are heavy, sleek high b.c. cup and core bullets.

Pretty sure the BT redesign was in the early 90s. But anything can happen with a one off. The first couple of elk I shot were with Remington bronze tips those babies were explosive but they killed all the elk I pointed them at I shot my first bull with them at 30 yards

The old bronze tip bull feels like 100 years ago.

In the 90s I had a couple buddies that were in the CDA Indian tribe they killed a pile of elk and deer with a 180 ballistic tip out of. 30-378. I mean a PILE. At the time I thought it was odd because I kept hearing about the BT blowing up. But the fact was those BT were deadly from 50 yards to way farther than they should have been shooting with the technology at the time.


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[gerry35]

@Ryan Avery I remember hearing from a reliable source (might have been on Nosler's forum) that the redesign happened when the Ballistic Tip's went from a 100 count box to a 50 count box. The ones I had were the older ones from when I started loading in the early 1990's.

Like you I remember a guy who shot a grizzly with a 180 gr Ballistic Tip from a 300 Win Mag and I thought that was a but nuts. Did the job perfectly. I do try to use a wide variety of bullet styles and honestly they all worked fine. The only "failure" was a Barnes X bullet that penciled through on a bear but got flattened with a second bullet, an Accubond. All other Barnes TSX and TTSX have opened up fine.

Anyway I like these kind of discussions and seeing the results you guys are having with "target" bullets is eye opening. Going to be trying them in the near future.

 

[bmart2622]

There are multiple bullets in the 6.5CM that create noticeably and measurably larger wounds than any of those, especially the Temrinal Ascent.

Doesnt change my answer

 

[Mike Islander]

Doesnt change my answer

Of course it doesn't.

 

[bmart2622]

Of course it doesn't.

Why would it? Ive got nearly 3 decades of success, 26/26 elk dead with none lost!! Why would I change?