6.5 creed magnum

Exactly what “facts” have you offered to this thread? Your continued spouting of energy numbers that were made up by guys who were gifted guided elk hunts once a year so that the ranch, rifle maker, and bullet maker could get some print coverage? Where do that number actually come from? What is its source? You continue to say, “generally accepted” and other such, but nobody can point to actual scientific studies to justify. The earth being flat was “generally accepted” until someone took the time to do the research and show the truth.
So, Mr. Facts, how much energy is actually required to push an expanding bullet 12-18” through elk skin, muscle, and bone? How would you go about proving that?


Arrows, bullets, spears, sticks, antlers, etc, all kill the same way. By causing damage to vitals by puncturing or severing, thereby limiting the bodies ability to provide oxygen to the brain. If you are looking for a fact, there is one for you.

Also, if arrows don’t rely on velocity, why are bow guys so keen on chasing it?
More facts and data from actual research for you:
Mechanisms

The modern high power sporting cartridge relies on high velocity loaded with soft expanding type projectiles. As the projectile strikes flesh, it mushrooms (or tumbles) causing displacement of tissue through both physical contact as well as pressure. The projectile transfers its kinetic energy to the surrounding tissue causing acceleration of fluid particles in and around its path. This creates an explosive temporary wound channel that subsides to a wound channel far greater than the diameter of the projectile. The temporary wound channel reaches its maximum size within one millisecond, collapsing to its final size within several milliseconds. The size of the temporary wound channel is proportional to how much energy is delivered and can be given numerical values. In both military and sporting applications these two types of wound damage are referred to as the temporary wound channel and permanent wound channel, both having the effect of causing blood loss, organ and nerve damage relative to shot placement.

At this point I would urge readers to ditch the temporary versus permanent wound channel terminology. Such terms may make us sound like experts in the know of such things but help us little in the field. A hunter does not walk up to a kill and state, “boy, you should have seen that temporary wound channel, lucky I didn’t blink”. I do not believe any human has the ability to see such things frame by frame and therefore, a wise man should drop such intellectual pontification. There are far more important factors to focus on…

Fast Killing
To begin with, please understand that much of the information presented from here is unique to my own research. You will not read the same in other places unless the information has been derived from my research. Although there are many people who work as experts in the field of terminal ballistics, I firmly believe that there is still a great level of misunderstanding within this subject.

Fast killing is an important factor for two reasons. The first is with regards to humane killing. Compassion must always be at the fore front of the hunters mind, at least in my opinion. The second factor of importance is the ability to secure game quickly, without losing the animal. In bush hunting situations it is not uncommon for a dead run animal to be lost after traveling between 100 and 300 yards before expiring, falling into a gut or hole, never to be seen again. Frustrating, isn’t it? For the tops hunter, it means securing an animal on the ledge it was perched on. Dead running game on the tops can very easily expire when traversing a ravine, the animal falling, becoming stuck in a position that is neither recoverable from the top or bottom of the bluff system. Been there, done that, don’t want to go through it again.

In order to get the best results it is important to understand the mechanisms of killing and how a fast kill occurs.

A common misconception when witnessing game collapses at the moment the bullet impacts is that the force of the projectile has physically knocked the animal to the ground. We tend to call this an instant kill. Newton’s law suggests that for every force there is an equal and opposite force. To this end the force of the bullet impacting game is no greater than the recoil of the rifle. So what causes the instant collapse or poleaxe as it is often caused?

Instant collapse occurs when the central nervous system (CNS) is damaged or electrically disrupted as a result of one of two mechanisms, either direct or indirect contact.

Direct contact refers to a bullet directly striking and destroying one of the major nerve centers, including the thoracic and cervical vertebrae, the brain or the autonomic plexus, regardless of velocity, this will result in instant death.

Indirect contact refers to the effects of a high velocity bullet imparting its energy, creating a hydrostatic shock wave. In terminal ballistics, the terms hydraulic shock and hydrostatic shock both refer to kinetic energy transferred as shock waves through flesh, however, each term describes different results.

Hydraulic shock is the civil engineers term also known as water hammer but in terminal ballistics context refers to the pressure of accelerated fluid particles that create the temporary wound channel.

Hydrostatic shock transfer refers to the effect when shock waves travel through flesh to distant nerve centers, disrupting their ability to emit electrical impulses.

Be very much aware that the terms hydraulic and hydrostatic shock are quite often misused by both hunters and professionals - including ballisticians working for bullet making companies.

7mmRUM and porkers web large

Wide, disproportionate to caliber wounding (hydraulic shock) thanks to the 162gr Hornady SST combined with high velocity which also caused hydrostatic shock (instant collapse).

The reason why game animals drop instantly with chest shots that do not directly strike the CNS, is due to hydrostatic shock transfer to the spine which passes through to the brain. A high velocity cartridge well matched to game body weights imparts over half its energy within the first 2cm of penetration, creating a shock wave. This electrical shock wave travels outwards via the rib cage until it reaches the spine and then continues through to the brain (CNS). The result is an immediate loss of consciousness as the body shuts down for diagnostics.

Along with the loss of consciousness, the projectile has also created a large wound channel, draining all of the body’s blood within several seconds. The loss of blood and damage to vital organs cause death to the animal before it has the chance to regain consciousness. This action creates the illusion that the projectile has knocked its victim to the ground, killing it instantly. More careful examination shows that the shot caused coma, followed by blood loss, followed by death. The hydrostatic shock created by a hunting bullet is identical in action to when a boxer is struck on the jaw by his opponent, disrupting the functions of the brain with a resulting loss of consciousness.

The Stasborg tests also revealed that a large wound cavity can cause a blood pressure spike to the brain, inducing immediate coma, though this is relative to hydraulic shock, not hydrostatic shock as described here. This phenomenon also helps produce ethical killing.
 
Exactly what “facts” have you offered to this thread? Your continued spouting of energy numbers that were made up by guys who were gifted guided elk hunts once a year so that the ranch, rifle maker, and bullet maker could get some print coverage? Where do that number actually come from? What is its source? You continue to say, “generally accepted” and other such, but nobody can point to actual scientific studies to justify. The earth being flat was “generally accepted” until someone took the time to do the research and show the truth.
So, Mr. Facts, how much energy is actually required to push an expanding bullet 12-18” through elk skin, muscle, and bone? How would you go about proving that?


Arrows, bullets, spears, sticks, antlers, etc, all kill the same way. By causing damage to vitals by puncturing or severing, thereby limiting the bodies ability to provide oxygen to the brain. If you are looking for a fact, there is one for you.

Also, if arrows don’t rely on velocity, why are bow guys so keen on chasing it?

A heavy yet soft and frangible or partially frangible projectile (loses some weight) may not deliver hydrostatic shock very far depending on game body weights, but providing the cluster is dense enough, it will be capable of rendering deep, broad and highly traumatic wounding across a wide range of body weights. Good frangible bullet designs can continue to produce mechanical wounding and a measure of hydraulic shock down to impact velocities of 1600fps with some exceptional projectiles continuing to produce excellent performance down to velocities as low as 1400fps.

For those wondering about the middle ground between light and stout and heavy and soft, there are certainly some good bullet designs on the market. One of the best middle ground bullets is the Hornady SST, a semi frangible bullet design that tries to retain some weight for penetration. A specific example is the 7mm 162 grain SST which is effective on Red/Mule deer at close ranges (adequate penetration) yet is capable of producing wide wounding at extended ranges (around 1000 yards in the 7mm Remington Magnum). On the other hand, we do have to be a bit careful with the middle ground. For example, the Nosler Accubond has core bonding in an attempt to toughen the bullet but is also designed to be fast expanding and is generally available in mid weights such as the 140 grain .270 Winchester bullet. This particular load works extremely well on mid-sized deer at ordinary hunting ranges however, the Accubond can suffer when pushed to the extremes. It can be too stout for low velocity work yet too soft for tough game. In this regard, we have to be careful as to how we use a ‘general purpose’ bullet design. You may wish to take a note from the Taoists and choose the middle ground so as to be prepared for any contingency, however if you fail to fully understand the limits of your cartridge versus your intended game, you may choose something which is neither fish nor fowl and does a generally bad job within the role you have chosen for it. For example, you may load the .375 caliber 260 grain Accubond for an African trip. And while this works exceptionally well on some larger bodied game, you might be in for a world of hurt if you try to tackle a cape buffalo with this bullet and find that it completely runs out of steam before
 
Dude. You have not had one person agree with you yet. I promise you you’re not having the effect you think you are.
 
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