6.5 CM For New Hunter

[eric1115]

I switch them out of the lighter guns when I see them getting lazy with their fundamentals. By lighter I mean 7lbs bare so not super light.

That's what I'm getting at... a regular, hunting weight rifle in 6.5CM is going to have more recoil than what is ideal for building good marksmanship skills. A braked or suppressed 12-15 lb rifle clamped in a tripod is a different animal altogether.

 

[DW1996]

I think a 6 Creedmoor or 243win fits the bill a lot better. Can shoot a smaller grain bullet and grow into the 1XX.

 

[Jbuck]

Yep. The I'll agree if the OP wants a high volume range gun a 223 is the way to go. However if he wants a rifle for him to hunt with a 6.5cm is a good reccomedation as well. There are plenty of lighter bullets to make some really soft shooting loads.

 

[ElPollo]

Yep. The I'll agree if the OP wants a high volume range gun a 223 is the way to go. However if he wants a rifle for him to hunt with a 6.5cm is a good reccomedation as well. There are plenty of lighter bullets to make some really soft shooting loads.

If he wants a rifle for himself to hunt with, a 6.5 cm is a good recommendation. For an 8 year old, not so much. If you consider recoil proportional to body weight, an 80# kid shooting a 6.5 cm is equivalent to a 200# adult shooting a 300 win mag. I not would recommend that approach for an adult who is new to shooting.

I see lots of these threads where people say “my boy did just fine with an ‘06.” The reality is that most people actually suck at shooting and don’t know any better. Why would we not want to set our own kids up to be the most successful they can be? If you want to do that, minimize recoil and muzzle blast and get them to shoot enough ammo to burn out a barrel.

If you have concerns about using a 223 on big game, look at the other thread on the topic. It’s got hundreds of pictures of deer, elk and bears taken with the cartridge and I think it’s up to 3 or 4 moose now. Pair it with a 77 gr TMK or a 73 gr ELDM, and it’ll kill anything in North America out to 400 yards.

 

[Jbuck]

If he wants a rifle for himself to hunt with, a 6.5 cm is a good recommendation. For an 8 year old, not so much. If you consider recoil proportional to body weight, an 80# kid shooting a 6.5 cm is equivalent to a 200# adult shooting a 300 win mag. I not would recommend that approach for an adult who is new to shooting.

I see lots of these threads where people say “my boy did just fine with an ‘06.” The reality is that most people actually suck at shooting and don’t know any better. Why would we not want to set our own kids up to be the most successful they can be? If you want to do that, minimize recoil and muzzle blast and get them to shoot enough ammo to burn out a barrel.

If you have concerns about using a 223 on big game, look at the other thread on the topic. It’s got hundreds of pictures of deer, elk and bears taken with the cartridge and I think it’s up to 3 or 4 moose now. Pair it with a 77 gr TMK or a 73 gr ELDM, and it’ll kill anything in North America out to 400 yards.

On the 223 for everything thought. The best I can do is agree to disagree. I know way to many hunters or fishermen to believe everything I hear. Let alone strangers on a forum. I'm sure we get to hear about all the wounded game that runs off.

Felt recoil isn't tied to body weight like that. There is a lot more physics involved. Recoil pulse and duration are tied to body weight and perceived recoil a lot closer. Think a car hitting a brick wall(200lb man), versus slamming on its brakes and taking longer to stop(80lb man).

My 2 kids are opposite in 1 prefers a brake and 1 prefers a suppressor. Both shoot with ear muffs. Meaning there is no one size fits all answer.

Lastly a 223 shooting a 77gr bullet has 5 or 6 ft/lb of recoil. A mild loaded 6.5cm has around 7'ish whereas a 30-06 has 20'ish. So it wasn't asked about and shouldn't be included.

 

[ElPollo]

On the 223 for everything thought. The best I can do is agree to disagree. I know way to many hunters or fishermen to believe everything I hear. Let alone strangers on a forum. I'm sure we get to hear about all the wounded game that runs off.

Felt recoil isn't tied to body weight like that. There is a lot more physics involved. Recoil pulse and duration are tied to body weight and perceived recoil a lot closer. Think a car hitting a brick wall(200lb man), versus slamming on its brakes and taking longer to stop(80lb man).

My 2 kids are opposite in 1 prefers a brake and 1 prefers a suppressor. Both shoot with ear muffs. Meaning there is no one size fits all answer.

Lastly a 223 shooting a 77gr bullet has 5 or 6 ft/lb of recoil. A mild loaded 6.5cm has around 7'ish whereas a 30-06 has 20'ish. So it wasn't asked about and shouldn't be included.

Didn’t mean to insinuate that you were starting your kids on a 30/06, but I’ve seen it discussed by others here. I am not assuming you are a bad dad. I’m just asking you to reevaluate some of your arguments.

That said a suppressed 223 will have 3-4# of recoil energy and your kids will get immediate feedback on their form and fundamentals because they will see the bullet hit through the scope. Even at 100 yards. You say you are limiting their round counts because you say they get lazy with fundamentals. They’re not lazy, the recoil is just obscuring the lesson they need to learn. Putting them on a tripod to control recoil and support the weight of the firearm does nothing to promote good form and fundamentals. Much less gun safety.

Disagreeing on my statement about the 223 for hunting is allowed, but please consider the data before doing so. The combo I am referencing results in pint glass diameter wound channels reaching up to 18” deep. What can you think of that won’t die quickly from that? Most people make cartridge decisions based on dogma that has no basis in fact. The evidence in the 223 thread is voluminous. If your argument is that the data is high graded and people aren’t reporting failures, consider this. If you’re getting a pint glass sized wound channel that will still brake a moose femur and continue to penetrate to the offhand side, is more damage really what’s needed? And if bigger gets you more damage at the cost of reduced accuracy, which group do you think will have more rodeos and train wrecks?

I’d also ask you to think about your physics and recoil energy argument from your kid’s perspective instead of trying to justify preconceived notions. The effects of recoil on accuracy are pretty clearly documented and the power factor of PRS and NRL is evidence of that. Everyone shoots better with less recoil, even me and you. If your kids, want to stay on the range and shoot an extra box of ammo with the lighter kicking gun and are more confident making shots on game, where is the downside?

I’m sure you are thinking but Elmer said “use enough gun”. Elmer’s statement was based on his experience with black powder cartridge firearms and handguns with non-expanding bullets. Modern bullet construction has made that argument moot. The 223 is legal to use for big game in all but about 3 centerfire states. If you can make the same wound channel with a 223 shooting TMKs at 400 yards as you can make with a 300 WM with accubonds, why pay the recoil tax through reduced accuracy? And why make your kids pay it with a 6.5 cm?

And finally, brakes are not a great idea for anyone. There is plenty of information out there that breaks contribute to hearing loss over the long term even with hearing protection. This happens in two ways. First braked guns increase the sound signature often beyond the noise reduction rating of your hearing protection. Even if that’s not the case with your combo, brakes direct sound waves back towards the shooter. Those waves can cause damage to the cilia in your ears through the flesh and bones of your face. But beyond that, the muzzle blast has a huge effect on accuracy. You said you have a son who prefers brakes. Which do you think he will shoot better, a suppressed 223, or a braked 6.5? Which one do you think he’ll want to shoot 40 rounds through?

Like I said, this is meant respectfully and I am not questioning your parenting skills. I have a kid too and I want her to be better than I am. Passing on shooting skills and helping our kids be better shooters and more ethical hunters is something we can all agree is important.

 

[Jbuck]

I agree with alot of what you are saying. I don't agree with a 223 being a good big game round for everyone. The best I can do is agree to disagree.

Prs and nrl are great, but even they are constantly changing what and how they shoot. 6.5's to 6's now starting to go back to heavy 6.5's.

The guy asked about a hunting rifle for a beginner. IMO the 6.5cm is a good choice. You can load it down close to a 223 recoil wise, or buy reduced recoil ammo if you dont reload. It's a relatively mild round. A general trip to shoot with both boys is 150-200rds. Targets from 100-990yds. Occasionally out to 1350yds. I like to do positional shooting as well as bench and prone. We practice mostly for hunting, so we use the tripod quite a bit.

Lastly. There are several styles of brakes. Some direct more sound back to the shooter then others. FWIW I'd never use a brake on one of their hunting rifles.

 

[LongWayAround]

I doubt that when most people think of a kid's first starter rifle that they picture a gun bolted onto a tripod with a brake or suppressor.

 

[Jbuck]

I doubt that when most people think of a kid's first starter rifle that they picture a gun bolted onto a tripod with a brake or suppressor.

How about a howa for hunting then? No brake or suppressor.

 

[The_Whitetail_Kid]

I vote 6.5 creedmore with brake. I personally feel 223 is too small to do much with, so that’s why i would go 6.5. Shoot a lighter bullet also to save recoil.

 

[xsn10s]

Hmm I'm jumping into another one of these lol. The last one was with a 14 y/o and 30-06. but in this scenario I'd agree and say get a .223 Rem, a 1-8" twist one. Cheap ammo to practice with and long barrel life if not shot hot. And in Oregon you can hunt deer with it. If you don't feel comfortable using if for big game it'll work well for varmints and practice. What big game rifles do you currently own?

 

[ElPollo]

I was not being critical of using tripods. I think they are great for hunting when you have time to set them up. My point was that having a kid control the gun and build a stable shooting position does more for training.

 

[ElPollo]

I vote 6.5 creedmore with brake. I personally feel 223 is too small to do much with, so that’s why i would go 6.5. Shoot a lighter bullet also to save recoil.

Feelings lie to us. Make decisions on things that are measurable and testable. I feel like 375 H&H is the coolest round ever made, but it doesn’t mean I’d put my daughter behind one to shoot prairie dogs.

 

[eric1115]

I vote 6.5 creedmore with brake. I personally feel 223 is too small to do much with, so that’s why i would go 6.5. Shoot a lighter bullet also to save recoil.

What is that feeling based on? Have you seen .223 wound channels with 77 TMK or 73 ELDM's?

 

[Jbuck]

This is all I can picture everytime this discussion happens.

 

[ElPollo]

A general trip to shoot with both boys is 150-200rds. Targets from 100-990yds. Occasionally out to 1350yds. I like to do positional shooting as well as bench and prone. We practice mostly for hunting, so we use the tripod quite a bit.

BTW, kudos on this. That’s awesome.

 

[Jbuck]

I was not being critical of using tripods. I think they are great for hunting when you have time to set them up. My point was that having a kid control the gun and build a stable shooting position does more for training.

We also do positional shooting. Here is my 6yo making a cold bore on a 10" plate at 510yds. I usually don't record much as you can see his bad habits, but he is still enthusiastic. Trying to help. His older brother making a hit at 990yd with the creedmoor. It's all for fun. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat and every kid is going to be different. My oldest kid was a great shot but didn't ever care for anything over a rimfire until he was 18 the younger two like them.

 

[CMF]

I think I'm going to add a 6.5 this year. I'm looking at the Howa superlite, but I haven't found an adjustable stock for it yet. If anyone knows of one, please link.
I don't think the 6.5 is too much for some kids, just depends on the kid. My three have been shooting a 243 and/or 270 since they were 8, one son got his elk with a 50 cal muzzy at 11 and my daughter got an oryx with a 300win mag at 14 and an elk with a 50cal muzzy at 15.
My 10yo drew a AZ early rifle tag this year, so looking to get a 6.5 with suppressor by then if can get it in. He practiced this past year with a 270 and carried it on an elk hunt this past year.
The Howa will be a lite gun, but at this age, more than likely we'll clamp it in the BOG if we have the time to set it up.
I started mine out just shooting a 22lr until they shot their first deer with the 243 or 270, then they started practicing occasionally with the bigger calibers, usually off a lead sled or clamping tripod.

 

[AZsniper]

I'm looking at buying a 6.5 creed that my son can start shooting. He's 8. I was going to go 7mm-08 but 6.5 creek ammo is so common I want one (I don't currently own one). I'm looking to rifle suggestions and feedback on my criteria. My criteria:

1. Adjustable LOP, whether by spacer or actual continuous adjustability. I'd like a minimum of 12.5" and up to 13.5" so I can shoot it well and he can as he grows.
2. Hinged floor plate internal magazine. I'm open to a magazine but it's one less thing to worry about if there's no magazine.
3. 6.5lbs. I don't mind if it's lighter but I don't want it much heavier
4. Price: $750.. . might be able to stretch it $1,000 or more for the right rifle but just don't see a need.
5. Barrel lenght: 22" max but prefer 20"

I'm looking at the Weatherby Vanguard Compact Hunter. https://weatherby.com/store/vanguard-compact-hunter/ real hard. It sounds like the Vanguard is a pretty solid rifle. Thoughts?

I've also thought about the sig cross because a chassis gun sounds can fit the compact criteria on another dimension with the ability to adjust the LOP and cheek piece as well as fold it. With those moving parts comes some complication I assume for a young hunter but I'm getting this gun for me and him to shoot until he can pick somthing he really wants when he's much older.

I've also thought about the Abolt 2, Tikka, and others but they just dont' tick all the boxes quite like the Vanguard seems to. . . but I've never held one. I'm open to other suggestions. Any thoughts?

There is no perfect caliber, but I think 6.5 is for kids. I did the same exact thing for my son. Put a break on a 6.5 and it becomes a loud 243. My son never developed a flinch and His form is perfect now as a teen. He has shot everything from coyotes to elk with it. Don’t let anyone tell you it is too small for elk. Inside 200yds 140/150gr is plenty enough. My son’s elk only went 50 feet. He put it right behind the crease. Ruger gen 2 Hunter or ranch would be perfect for a kid imo. Good luck.

 

[Mulyhuntr]

There is no perfect caliber, but I think 6.5 is for kids. I did the same exact thing for my son. Put a break on a 6.5 and it becomes a loud 243. My son never developed a flinch and His form is perfect now as a teen. He has shot everything from coyotes to elk with it. Don’t let anyone tell you it is too small for elk. Inside 200yds 140/150gr is plenty enough. My son’s elk only went 50 feet. He put it right behind the crease. Ruger gen 2 Hunter or ranch would be perfect for a kid imo. Good luck.

My last elk went one step at 555 yards with a 147 eldm from a needsmoor. I'd feel confident on the bullets capabilities at much further than that. I'll be stepping down to a 108eldm from a 243 this year. I'd go 223 but state won't allow it. Creedmoor is not an 8yo starter rifle to help them form good fundamentals.