6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

Formidilosus

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The pea shooter guys always use extreme examples. Lol

No! I’m saying that if two bullets hit the exact same spot the one with 1800 lbs of energy will kill elk every time but the one with under 1000 lbs will not. Simple. This conversation isn’t about 300 yard shots. It’s about being prepared to kill elk at any range you can shoot at. Which in elk country can be far. Like my above post said... they all have their limits and lighter means not as f


So under 1,000ft-lbs won’t kill an elk, but 1,800 will? Interesting. No dancing around- how deep, how wide, and what shape will 1,800 ft-lbs of energy make? How about under 1,000 ft-lbs?

How far have have your last few elk been?
 

wyosam

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So guys with bigger cartridges can’t shoot so those magnums are useless? Lol Grasping at straws....

No, they just don’t matter if the shooter can’t put the bullet where it needs to be. There’s no replacement for shot placement. Nobody is saying magnums are bad. They just don’t make up for bad shooting no matter how much some want to believe. That thought process needs to go away. They ARE effective at longer range than smaller cartridges, but shot placement is still king.


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Energy guys- a bullet has 1,300 ft-lbs at impact; tell us how deep the bullet will penetrate, how wide the wound will be, and the overall shape? Energy is the determining factor, it’s so important... so tell us.
Deeper and wider than with a lighter bullet which gives a little more margin for error. A good thing when there are so many variables. But if you know all of your shots in the field will be perfect then that doesn’t matter. Of my last 22 elk 2 were over 400 yards. The test inside that. I just happen to manage to get closer but if I couldn’t I’d hammer them at 900.
 

nobody

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This entire thread is interesting to say the least, so I thought I would offer up some of my opinions and experiences:


1. When I was a broke college kid, I won a Ruger American in 6.5 Creedmoor in a raffle. It was the only bolt action I had, and by dang I was gonna hunt. So I put roughly 500 rounds down range last summer and took it out and killed the bull in my profile picture last September. Now, I'll be the first to admit that a 6.5 Creedmoor isn't the ideal elk cartridge, but I wouldn't let it keep me from going hunting.

2. Whenever I hear people talking about banning different calibers, it blows my mind how many people don't know the difference between "caliber" and "cartridge." There is a GIANT difference between a 300 Weatherby Mag and a .300 Blackout, even though both shoot the same caliber (diameter) of bullet. Arbitrarily banning a certain caliber, to me, is pointless. The caliber is irrelevant, the cartridge is what makes the difference. We can most likely all agree that a .300 BO is not enough for elk, but should we ban all .308 caliber cartridges? Not if you ever wanna hunt with your .300 Win Mag ever again.

3. Beyond the argument of the importance of shot placement is the argument of foot lbs of energy. So many people say that a certain cartridge doesn't produce enough energy to kill an animal, but where exactly did that come from? Who decided those arbitrary numbers? Who signed off on them? I'm sorry, but if we all feel like 1500 foot lbs of energy is what is needed to kill an elk, it's not like that elk is gonna laugh at you if you hit him with 1450 and turn and look at you and say "haha, not enough energy, I'm not gonna die" as the bullet bounces off of him. We walk around and say "nope that isn't enough energy, blah blah blah" but who ACTUALLY knows how much energy is REQUIRED to kill an elk? Not preferred, but REQUIRED. At what point will the bullet actually NOT kill the elk, at what threshold?

Personally, I think so many of us have forgotten what is really needed to bring down an animal. We have gotten so wrapped up in state of the art scopes and optics, the latest and greatest whiz-bang magnum, premium camo, $1000 packs, ballistic coefficients, sub MOA groups, and lots of other things. At the end of the day, none of that actually kills an elk. What kills an elk (or any big game animal) is a gaping hole in a vital organ. Whether that hole is put there by a 243 or a 340 Weatherby is irrelevant, if that elk has a hole through the middle of his heart with a well constructed bullet, he is going down. Our grandparents killed lots more animals that we ever have or will with 30-30 lever actions and cup and core bullets moving embarrassingly slow. The important thing is to be confident in your abilities, practice a crap ton, and know when too far is too far. There's lots of people saying things like "6.5 creedmoor isn't enough at distance, the guys can't shoot that far, etc." But I bet if we were all honest with each other, there's lots of us on here who have no business shooting a 300 WM at an elk beyond about 200 yards, no matter how great the trajectory is or how much energy it has. People have replaced practice and abilities with using lots of powder and lots of bullet, but a marginal shot is a marginal shot, whether it's with the Creedmoor or the Win Mag.

Rant over.
 

Formidilosus

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Deeper and wider than with a lighter bullet which gives a little more margin for error. A good thing when there are so many variables. But if you know all of your shots in the field will be perfect then that doesn’t matter. Of my last 22 elk 2 were over 400 yards. The test inside that. I just happen to manage to get closer but if I couldn’t I’d hammer them at 900.

So in other words, you have no idea but you are utterly convinced you are correct= Dunning Kruger.

Elk the last couple of years-

676yds
735yds
801yds
666yds


Not one impacted with 1,800 ft-lbs of energy. The farthest traveled was approx 120 yards with a heart shot and very narrow wound channel due sub optimal bullet (deep penetrating, high weight retention). The rest were 20’ish yards, 40 yards, and 0 yards.

Terminal ballistics fact: ft-lbs energy can not be used to determine bullet performance in tissue.
 
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So guys with bigger cartridges can’t shoot so those magnums are useless? Lol Grasping at straws....

Who cares what round someone shoots if they can’t shoot it. Point is bigger will not make up for much. All bigger does is reach further. If someone carries a big magnum to make up for bad shot placement, I’d say shoot more with something g you’re comfortable with and I’ll bet a lot of the bad shot placement goes away. Which brings us back to SHOOT MORE and SHOOT WHAT YOURE COMFORTABLE WITH. Sorry to yell :)
 
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So in other words, you have no idea but you are utterly convinced you are correct= Dunning Kruger.

Elk the last couple of years-

676yds
735yds
801yds
666yds


Not one impacted with 1,800 ft-lbs of energy. The farthest traveled was approx 120 yards with a heart shot and very narrow wound channel due sub optimal bullet (deep penetrating, high weight retention). The rest were 20’ish yards, 40 yards, and 0 yards.

Terminal ballistics fact: ft-lbs energy can not be used to determine bullet performance in tissue.

Asking in nicest way possible, because maybe you do have a great reason: why are all your shots from so far? Honestly curious, and honestly open to some reason.

For me I’ve always been able to cut distance to under 400y. But terrain, time of day etc May play into your long shots? Not trying to argue ballistics because I’m sure you and dozens of others on here could give me a good 40 hours of lessons.
 
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Ok I’ll ask a question... why? Why go with a lighter bullet? It’s safe to say nobody makes perfect shots every time. I don’t make up for poor shooting with more energy. It’s just a better tool for the job. Would you shoot a cape buff with a light bullet? The answer is no because your PH wouldn’t let you.
 

Formidilosus

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Asking in nicest way possible, because maybe you do have a great reason: why are all your shots from so far? Honestly curious, and honestly open to some reason.

For me I’ve always been able to cut distance to under 400y. But terrain, time of day etc May play into your long shots?

For those elk- terrain. Backpacking, late season in an area where ridge top to ridge top is between 600 and 800 yards. Elk are very close to the peaks, bed in the timber right below them and the prevailing wind blows up. Almost no way to hunt them in the timber without blowing them out.

I’d prefer everything to be ten yards and broadside, but I kill them where they are.
 
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Formidilosus

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Ok I’ll ask a question... why? Why go with a lighter bullet? It’s safe to say nobody makes perfect shots every time. I don’t make up for poor shooting with more energy. It’s just a better tool for the job. Would you shoot a cape buff with a light bullet? The answer is no because your PH wouldn’t let you.

What are you talking about light bullets? You have this belief that “energy” is a magical wand that means anything. It doesn’t. It is very easy to design an 80gr bullet that destroys more tissue than a 180gr Barnes TSX.

Your “ft-lbs energy” does not determine wound size. Well, technically in an extremely round about way it has an effect, but the number isn’t useable. It’s the equivalent of trying to determine the price of 50 Nosler 180gr .308 Partitions by using the price of tea in China. Yes, you can do some serious deep and round about research into commodity pricing, sourcing and economics to come up with how much that box of projectiles will cost.... OR you could just go to Shooters Pro shop and look at them.

Using Ft-lbs of energy as a wounding mechanism is ignorant, wasteful, and stupid. It doesn’t tell you anything about what a bullet will due in tissue. It is nonsense perpetuated by the uneducated.


Are Cape buffalo, elk? In any case- one, I wouldn’t use a PH anymore than I would hire a pimp. Two, ft-lbs energy still won’t tell me anything I need to know about terminal performance in Buffalo.
 

sneaky

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My boss said that his 270Win shooting 150gr Federal blue box Power Shoks is his 1000yd gun and his 6.5CM is good to 1600. Guess those Quigley Ford scopes are the real deal fellas.

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Stalker69

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So guys with bigger cartridges can’t shoot so those magnums are useless? Lol Grasping at straws....
If your referring to my post, no that is not what I am implying. But we see so many “ average” shooters show up with large caliber rifles and think the heavy bullets and extra power are going to make up for there inaccuracy on an animal if they don’t put the bullet where it needs to go. It’s great to see guys shoot magnum calibers, that can shoot them well. Just as it is with the smaller calibers. But caliber and horsepower alone don’t mean you can shoot, nor should you shoot( try to kill something) beyond your ability with any weapon. A lot of people think the caliber ( bullet weight) and horsepower trump there ability to shoot accurately is all I am saying. We have have seen guys show up in camp that have bought brand new rifles and spend a lot of money on them and the scopes, and have never shot them, had them bore sighted and figure they are good to go. And many when they fire that first shot with there brand new 338 find out they are not going to shoot it very well no mater how many times they pull the trigger. Something they can shoot comfortably and accurately, and are not afraid of ( although no one is going to admit to that part) is a far better choice. And with the quality bullets that are available now days, it does make some of the lighter caliber guns great choices for many people.
 

Stalker69

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My boss said that his 270Win shooting 150gr Federal blue box Power Shoks is his 1000yd gun and his 6.5CM is good to 1600. Guess those Quigley Ford scopes are the real deal fellas.

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There could be lot more to this then you ( we) know. Maybe he shoots his 270 well up to 1000 yards, maybe that’s what he and that gun and scope are capable of. Now maybe his creedmoor is a “ better “ rifle, better scope and it and him are capable of 1600 yards. Just cause he or that gun is capable of shooting targets that far, does not mean he nor they should be shooting at animals that far. A lot more comes into play, when you are trying to take the life of something, or at least it very well should. But then again to many it just don’t .
 

sneaky

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There could be lot more to this then you ( we) know. Maybe he shoots his 270 well up to 1000 yards, maybe that’s what he and that gun and scope are capable of. Now maybe his creedmoor is a “ better “ rifle, better scope and it and him are capable of 1600 yards. Just cause he or that gun is capable of shooting targets that far, does not mean he nor they should be shooting at animals that far. A lot more comes into play, when you are trying to take the life of something, or at least it very well should. But then again to many it just don’t .
Ummm.... if you check the ballistics on that load it's under 1k ft/lbs of KE at 500yds, it isn't going to kill an elk, or even hit one at 1k yards. A Remington 788 with a FFP QF scope that when you take it up to max power you can't even see the reticle for past 600yds. The 6.5CM is the Muddy Girl camo Savage Axis. He doesn't practice with either, and I'll wager whatever amount you want on neither rifle hitting, much less, killing, anything near 1k yards. It's why I brought it up. It's idiots like him that give everyone a bad name.

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Ok I’ll ask a question... why? Why go with a lighter bullet? It’s safe to say nobody makes perfect shots every time. I don’t make up for poor shooting with more energy. It’s just a better tool for the job. Would you shoot a cape buff with a light bullet? The answer is no because your PH wouldn’t let you.
recoil sensitivity is one obvious answer. lots of people are afraid of their rifles, not good with them, and don't shoot them.

you only have 1 rifle is another reason (someone who isn't an elk hunter goes elk hunting)

i agree with you in shooting the largest cartridge you shoot well (within reason of course) if you have larger cartridges and shoot them well, why not use it?..... rifle weight may be a variable, and one i can't blame someone for depending on the hunt.

basically there are tons of potential reasons... as long as you stay within your abilities and the abilities of the bullet you are shooting, what does it really matter? my buddy has filled his bull tag the past 2 years, both just shy of 700yds with his 6.5prc with the eld-x, both were "bang/flops" both fell as fast as gravity and never got back up... not my ideal elk cartridge but works for him. of all the elk i have seen killed the past 2 seasons, none were shot with "elk cartridges" and none of them got away.... roosies are big.

in the right hands is a bigger cartridge (all other things the same) better than a smaller one? it's not worse for sure, but you don't need a big magnum to consistently and cleanly kill elk. the smaller the cartridge just adds incremental limitations, not a big deal if you don't try to exceed them.
 

mavinwa2

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this old guy's observations...

Over the years, I've taken blacktail, whitetail deer & antelope with 243, 25-06 and recently 6.5 Creedmoor.
I've taken mule deer bucks, bull elk with my 30-06 and 300 Win Mag. Exclusively the 300WM the last 20 years.
My first bull elk in 1968 was taken with the family Mdl-94 in 32 Winchester Special at just under 100 yards. Now in possession of the family Mdl-94, pass it on to my daughter/grand sons one day.
It comes down to shot placement and the shooter's ability.

As for elk rifle calibers, I'll take my 300 Win Mag, custom 210gr Nosler Partition loads every time!
switch to 180gr for big muley bucks.

an outfitter has the gumption to ban 6.5, they probably have their reasons from experiences with their clients.

Note: I grew up, mentored in an elk hunters camp whereby 11 ol'timers forbid the 270 Win!!
 
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