6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

[204guy]

here ya go...
the REAL truth about 6.5 Creedmoor for elk.
for you younger hunters and you internet/web hunters...best 10 min you can listen too.

(18) Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith - YouTube

Lol. Take a shot every time Joe Biden... I mean Randy says the word energy. You won't mak it vrylong befr yo psstout.

 

[CorbLand]

Lol. Take a shot every time Joe Biden... I mean Randy says the word energy. You won't mak it vrylong befr yo psstout.

You may have a better chance at understanding the point of the video after shot 10 though.


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[PADave]

It's all about placement and while I don't subscribe to the 6.5 craze, I am sure they are very efficient with the proper bullet. Practice, practice, practice............ and then shoot some more

 

[mt100gr.]

here ya go...
the REAL truth about 6.5 Creedmoor for elk.
for you younger hunters and you internet/web hunters...best 10 min you can listen too.

(18) Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith - YouTube

Oh dear....LOL!! Now this thread is really getting into the rhubarb. Hopefully you linked that goofball just for laughs. His blathering won't do young hunters any good. .....IMO

 

[Fatcamp]

All that Scheels has in stock are magnum loads and 6.5x55. LOL @ Creedmoor fanboys.

 

[Stalker69]

If I were a guide I don’t think I’d care about what rifle they brought. I’d make a rule “don’t show up out of shape”.

I’d rather see a physical fitness test. If a guy can hike and cover ground quickly, I’ll bet I can get him into shooting range regardless of what rifle he brought. Who cares how far you can shoot or how much “energy” the round has at 1000y if you can’t catch up with the herd, or hike to the top of the ridge to glass before the sun comes up, or if you can’t get to where the elk are the rifle might as well be a rubber band gun.

Horses help ALOT, if you only want fit guys in camp your going to lose a lot of business. It would be nice, for sure , but most people are not in the kinda shape they should be. Plus older guys, people with health issues, handicaps, or injuries that still have the desire to hunt, horses make it possible for them to still enjoy it.

 

[brsnow]

For the most part fit people don’t hire guides;-)

 

[prm]

The guides in Africa have you check your rifles prior to hunting. You know, long flight and all. What they really use it as is an opportunity to see how you handle your rifle and how you shoot. No reason an outfitter couldn’t put out a target near the trailhead, or somewhere enroute to the hunting area, and have a client take a couple shots.

 

[Stalker69]

Oh dear....LOL!! Now this thread is really getting into the rhubarb. Hopefully you linked that goofball just for laughs. His blathering won't do young hunters any good. .....IMO

Yea, I am not young any more, and I couldn’t listen to whole thing. He has some good points, but this long range “ hunting” stuff is kinda getting out a hand.

 

[Stalker69]

For the most part fit people don’t hire guides;-)

Yea there are surprisingly quite a few that do. And many that hire them just to pack the meat out.

 

[AaronMColeman]

Horses help ALOT, if you only want fit guys in camp your going to lose a lot of business. It would be nice, for sure , but most people are not in the kinda shape they should be. Plus older guys, people with health issues, handicaps, or injuries that still have the desire to hunt, horses make it possible for them to still enjoy it.

Yeah I was kinda just playing when I said that. I'm not a guide, nobody should ever give me money for my hunting expertise! I just think it's funny people talk so much about which cartridge, which projectile, or which broadhead. But not nearly as much about being in decent physical condition. I'd rather have someone who can hike any terrain, 7-10 miles a day, and carries his grandpa's old .270 with corlokts, than a guy with a kick ass 6.5PRC (or insert any cool sexy round) but can't make it up the ridge before first light.

This is why I'm not a guide, I'd be so frustrated that people paid me so much money and didn't do their part by making sure they could actually get into the areas where elk are. Plus there are SO MANY benefits to being in good shape that I don't understand why everyone doesn't spend 30 min a day on the only body they'll ever get.

EDIT: Older, disabilities, or something that prevents a person from being more mobile...I'll do everything I can to get that person into a position to shoot something. I have a lot of disabled veteran friends who would love nothing more than to have that leg back and be able to hike the top of a steep ridge. Getting an elk for one of them would literally bring tears to my eyes. Again, this is why I'm not a guide! Also, again, sorry for the massive tangent.

 

[AaronMColeman]

Yea there are surprisingly quite a few that do. And many that hire them just to pack the meat out.

The packout is only part of the reason to be in shape. 7500'-10,000' will kick your ass hiking day after day, even when you live at those elevations!

 

[wildernessmaster]

Ok gonna start a caliber war here...

Look, I have nothing against the 6.5C - actually my favorite all around round is the 7-08 which by the way WAS the 6.5C not too many years ago. And if you look at the ballistic closely those two bullets are neck and neck except where you get to "paper punching only" ranges with both. (go ahead 6.5C fan boys and grab the fire extinguisher and put your panty flames out... more's coming)

Scratch that... the 7-08 actually can kill at the 6.5C's paper punching ranges. It actually has more ballistic lethality than a 300 win mag at longer distances - based on energy (granted energy is just a guide).

Back to the caliber war...

I haven't been hunting elk for as long as a lot of you, but about 4 years ago when I brought up the 7-08 for hunting elk on a few occasions with "old timer" elk hunters they all said something like, "I use to swear by that round until....". The until part always was some form of "I wounded one and didn't find it".

The point being at one time the near ballistically identical 7-08 was the "fan boy fav" that the 6.5C is today.

Fast forward to present... I think what these outfitters are learning is what snipers, ballisticians and wise old gun guys (like me) have known for a long time.... You can kill critters (and humans) with rocks - but a bazooka is way more definitive. In other words... yes speed of the bullet matters; yes size/mass of the bullet matter; but hell yes the more you can get more of all 3 (speed, mass, size)... the more your shot matters (shot placement issues aside).

And especially when a LOT of their customers are yahoos who: lack woodsmanship; lack shooting skills; and have an immense amount of bravado and testosterone particularly for those skills lacking.

Not a good mix for a light, small but screaming fast round and killing an elk.

Now for those of you who do have woodsmanship; have good shooting skills; and have hunted elk for many years - it may be the best round for you.

Me personally, while I am toying with building a gun in the caliber, but keep talking myself out of it because I keep coming to the same - why? Why do I need another caliber to reload (dies, brass, etc)? Why do I need another gun that shoots nearly identical to my 7-08? Why do I want to go down a half a millimeter when I don't punch paper? And more why questions come to mind...

In the end I probably won't. I love hunting with my 308. Its a boring round, I know, but it kills. When I am not in heavy grizzly country I love hunting even more with my 7-08. A little less boring, but still ho hum for the fan boys of today. But it kills. If I went to an outfitter and they mandated a 7 Rem Mag, or a 300 Win Mag, I would call them and provide them my bona fides. If that didn't suffice then I would choose to use someone else if I didn't want to grab my 7 RM or 300 WM and hunt.

It's their and my choices.

 

[TXJaeger]

So outfitter here.... now I will say it is every business owners choice to deny service to anyone, as a business owner they have put the time and money into their choice.... now coming down to what I see as an outfitter... personally I DO NOT have caliber restrictions, fully guided, drop camp, any of it except for the state regulations. Now I get calls every year what caliber do I suggest? My answer what do you have and what are you most comfortable with? If a guy says well my best weapon is a .243, I will give my honest opinion not the best caliber for an elk but if you can shoot your 243 at 250 yards and hit a dime everytime but ur 375HH you hit 2 out of 4 I’m gonna tell you I’d rather you have the 243. BUT your shot distance will be limited, at that point I find out bullets they are shooting research ft/lbs and velocity and what the bullet requires to perform. That will be your max range idc if the trajectory states 250 yards and the elk is 275 if we can’t close that 25 yards you’re not shooting.

I have guys that show up and screw broadheads on at the ranch straight out of the box, at that point I make them shoot. I’ve had guys show up and say well haven’t shot these bullets yet but stopped at cabelas and the salesman says they are better than the other brand.... we go shoot.

I’m have seen elk lost from many different calibers, if I told guys well we lost a bull with a 7MM so we don’t allow them anymore, I’m gonna lose clients. I also have a rule of 450 yards max IF you practice to that distance. If you haven’t shot that distance idc what the app on your phone says for trajectory you are shooting as far as you have practiced. I have harvested elk with my .270 I’m comfortable with it and can put my best placement with that rifle it’s my old faithful, some say it’s not enough.

I have seen .300’s fail, 7MM, .338 ultra, 6.5, .270, .308, but I’ve seen failure whether personally or from other guides/outfitters on almost every broadhead to. I don’t ban them, but as an outfitter if I said NO mechanicals that’s my choice.

If you don’t like the outfitter said no 6.5 Caliber them either get a different gun or don’t book with him. If your plumber told you he won’t put in this toilet for your house cause he doesn’t deal with them you either take his advice or find a different plumber. That outfitter has his own choice maybe he has seen to many guys not capable of the shots they took BUT instead of cutting out a caliber he should limit distance. I try to make every guy shoot upon arrival. So I know what they can do and what I’m dealing with, you wouldn’t believe the amount of ignorance about gun safety from a 65 yr old that’s been hunting for 50 yrs and same goes for 20 and 30 year olds.


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Great insight! Appreciate you sharing.

 

[roosiebull]

here ya go...
the REAL truth about 6.5 Creedmoor for elk.
for you younger hunters and you internet/web hunters...best 10 min you can listen too.

(18) Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith - YouTube

i couldn't finish it.... what i would ask, is how many failures he's seen on elk with a 6.5? a crap ton of people prove him wrong every year (not just in the 6.5 discussion) he just seems like a "stuck in his ways" old dude... plenty of them around. i like his name dropping early....

his views on long range hunting alone kind of set the scene for his view on things

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

And if I may wrap up this thread:

 

[Spoonbill]

i couldn't finish it.... what i would ask, is how many failures he's seen on elk with a 6.5? a crap ton of people prove him wrong every year (not just in the 6.5 discussion) he just seems like a "stuck in his ways" old dude... plenty of them around. i like his name dropping early....

his views on long range hunting alone kind of set the scene for his view on things

That guy seems to know about rifles (to a point at least) but his thinking seems stuck in the 80s. Someone should send him the 223 thread..... I’d love to see that rant.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Man, this thread has gone all over the place. I have a lot of respect for guys who shoot all the time and can make any caliber work for them. I also have a ton of respect for the guys who pass on a 200 yard shot because they couldn't get the crosshairs steady. Both types are knowing their limitations, and staying within them. I've shot a couple animals past 400 yards in my life, but it sure looks awful far every time I contemplate pulling the trigger out past 300 yards.

I don't care what caliber I have, if the crosshairs aren't rock solid, and the wind isn't right I want a shorter shot. I'm a middle of the road 30-06 guy, and I would happily use bigger or smaller cartridge if forced to do so. Neither one is going to change that I'm just not comfortable shooting past a certain range, and that range is short enough I don't need a dial on my scope, and any modern cartridge will do just fine with the right bullet selection.

Outfitters are trying to fix a problem they see in their daily business. Might not be the best way to do it, but they at least care.

 

[Crowmangler]

I used a guide that required everyone confirm their gun is still zeroed before they went into the field the first day. (Seriously though, why would any hunter not want to do this anyway?)

He also had a rule of thumb of no shots over 500-ish yards. If they can't get you closer than that they're not doing their job.

Their guides had the authority to call off a shot if there were other animals behind, skyline shots, etc.

The most critical part of the hunt occurs after the shot. You should respect the animal enough to do everything within your control to make a quick ethical kill shot. his includes getting as close as possible & using adequate sized ammo.

Think about these scenarios where iffy shots are made with iffy calibers:

(1) The bull doesn't go down & crosses a fence onto private & that landowner doesn't allow recovery. Hunt over, no elk. Bad deal for everyone except the scavengers.

(2) The bull doesn't go down & goes into steep, thick dark timber. Grizzly country. Now the guide & camp tender(s) have to go into that situation to try & retrieve an animal that may or may not be alive, may or may not claimed by grizzly overnight.

(3) Wounded bull heads off in the direction of where other hunters are located potentially screwing up their hunt

In the end, it's their business, their property so respect their rules or don't go.

 

[Haney]

You guys must be bored , 11 pages of this crap...just stinks up the place .