6.5 Banned on Elk by Outfitters?

[Laramie]

Some outfitters do have strong recommendations/rules that are beyond what state laws require. Some of them come from strange places. One outfitter I guided for had no requirements, only offered his recommendations. However, one of the ranches we guided on required .30+ caliber for elk/moose. I was told they did this because of lost/wounded animals in years prior. This was fairly easy for us to accommodate without causing a stink in camp. We simply found out what guns guys were shooting at the start of the hunt so we could ensure none of the guys shooting smaller calibers went to that ranch during the hunt.

 

[Stalker69]

Ummm.... if you check the ballistics on that load it's under 1k ft/lbs of KE at 500yds, it isn't going to kill an elk, or even hit one at 1k yards. A Remington 788 with a FFP QF scope that when you take it up to max power you can't even see the reticle for past 600yds. The 6.5CM is the Muddy Girl camo Savage Axis. He doesn't practice with either, and I'll wager whatever amount you want on neither rifle hitting, much less, killing, anything near 1k yards. It's why I brought it up. It's idiots like him that give everyone a bad name.

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Just as I said, more to this then we know. And I did say shoot vs kill something at those distances. If he’s lying he’s lying, there is a bunch of that going on. Go to range with him and have him show you , that’s how I would approach it. The guns are capable of shooting to a 1000 yards. There are far more that talk that they can shoot at 1000 plus yards, then can actually do it. Especially first shot, As with most things in life, if I don’t see it with my own eyes, I usually take it at 50% or less of what I hear being true. And to many, 300 yards is what they claim is 1000 yards.

 

[sneaky]

Just as I said, more to this then we know. And I did say shoot vs kill something at those distances. If he’s lying he’s lying, there is a bunch of that going on. Go to range with him and have him show you , that’s how I would approach it. The guns are capable of shooting to a 1000 yards. There are far more that talk that they can shoot at 1000 plus yards, then can actually do it. Especially first shot, As with most things in life, if I don’t see it with my own eyes, I usually take it at 50% or less of what I hear being true. And to many, 300 yards is what they claim is 1000 yards.

Jesus Christ dude, how much clearer do I need to make this? In the 6 years I've known him I can count on one hand the number of times he's fired either rifle, neither one more than 10 times. They never come out of the case til a couple days prior to the hunt, and a couple shots at 100yds to confirm that "yep, dead on still". His scope you can't even see the 1000yd hash mark when you zoom up because of the shitty ballistics of that load. You're trying to tell me there's more to this than I know? I know for a fact he's full of it, and he's gotten his information from reading long range forums, and not from actually shooting. There's a huge disconnect between the two.

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[sneaky]

Here's those 150gr Power Shok ballistics. You tell me if you would shoot an elk at 1000 yds with these.

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[Spoonbill]

Jesus Christ dude, how much clearer do I need to make this? In the 6 years I've known him I can count on one hand the number of times he's fired either rifle, neither one more than 10 times. They never come out of the case til a couple days prior to the hunt, and a couple shots at 100yds to confirm that "yep, dead on still". His scope you can't even see the 1000yd hash mark when you zoom up because of the shitty ballistics of that load. You're trying to tell me there's more to this than I know? I know for a fact he's full of it, and he's gotten his information from reading long range forums, and not from actually shooting. There's a huge disconnect between the two.

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Not sure if you are aware, but muddy girl camo adds about 500 fps to the 6.5 creedmoor. It shoots flatter than a 204 ruger running at 80k psi.
The more you know....

 

[Indian Summer]

Here's those 150gr Power Shok ballistics. You tell me if you would shoot an elk at 1000 yds with these.

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Those numbers are terrible! I’d ahoot an elk with that but only out to 250 yards.

In defense of the “placement is everything” guys.... I know a guy who killed a 5 point bull with a .22. He was a kid riding around on forest roads with friends looking for grouse. They saw one run up a spur road as they came around the bend so he got out and walked up the road. Next thing he knew there was a bull standing there. He shot it in the eye. It just stood there so he shot it again. He ended up shooting it in the eye 8 times. But by God he killed it!

 

[amassi]

Where did the 1500-1600ftlbs of energy for an elk come from? And why do we quote that as gospel truth? Could it be that 800ftlbs is enough?

Remington in 1962

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[Tmac]

I’ve seen elk shot with all kinds of guns, rifle, black powder , pistols, and bows. I have seen many killed with a 454 casual, 50 cal lead balls, 54 cal conical and balls, 30-30, 300 savage, 243 and several with a 22-250 as well as 300 wm, 300wsm, 7mm mag, , 270s, 6.5 creedmoors, 300 win ultra mag and many many more. I have also seen just as many ( actually more) not recovered from the higher powered weapons as I have with the lower powered ones, including bows. It comes down to shot placement, and how well the shooter is at putting that projectile in that spot. A bad shot is a bad shot. I have seen elk ( deer , antelope, and coyotes) not recovered with legs blown off by magnum and small calibers as well as paunch shot animals. Proper shot placement plays a huge roll in the recovery of an animal. A lot of people buy the big caliber guns and don’t shoot them well enough, and feel the size will make up for a “ slightly “ misplaced shot. As well as the impression that the bigger calibers also instantly means they are long range shooters now. We see it every year. It’s just not the case the majority of the time.

Matches what I have observed. While some can shoot their large mag’s well, quite a few can’t. Same goes for smaller cartridges. That said those shooting more moderate choices tend to hit the target better in my experience. Elk are easy to kill if you put a decent bullet in the right spot. Our last 4 elk, 2 bulls and 2 cows, were all under 200 yards and all one shot with a 270 Win. Two others hunting with us used a 338 Edge and 300 WM, took shots at over 800 and over 500, wounded and did not recover either.

 

[robtattoo]

All I can think about, reading this thread, is my old grizzled mate in western wyoming. He guided for his father's outfit in the Wind Rivers from the late 60s thru the mid 90s before he passed on his guide license.
When I first took an interest in elk, I sought his advice on chamberings & cartridges & i'll never forget what he told me.
He said to bring whatever I shoot best and he'd make damn sure I got close enough that it'd work. He really didn't care a whit about ballistics, MV, Ft/lb or anything like that. I remember him telling me his Dad carried a gallon jug to every camp & asked every hunter how far he could shoot. He'd make every hunter run with that jug, rifle & pack to their stated distance, then run back & shoot. He told me that if they didn't hit it first time, they were limited to 100yds max, regardless of what they were shooting! The old coot did the damn same thing with me my first hunt too & he was honestly surprised when i hit it at 300. Probably not as much as I was, to be honest! To this day though, he STILL doesn't trust anything 7mm.
I'm assuming that in his day, bullet construction wasn't what it is now & he
says he lost & had to track more elk hit with 7s than all other calibers combined.

Adds nothing to the thread really. Just telling a bit of a story is all.

 

[Spoonbill]

All I can think about, reading this thread, is my old grizzled mate in western wyoming. He guided for his father's outfit in the Wind Rivers from the late 60s thru the mid 90s before he passed on his guide license.
When I first took an interest in elk, I sought his advice on chamberings & cartridges & i'll never forget what he told me.
He said to bring whatever I shoot best and he'd make damn sure I got close enough that it'd work. He really didn't care a whit about ballistics, MV, Ft/lb or anything like that. I remember him telling me his Dad carried a gallon jug to every camp & asked every hunter how far he could shoot. He'd make every hunter run with that jug, rifle & pack to their stated distance, then run back & shoot. He told me that if they didn't hit it first time, they were limited to 100yds max, regardless of what they were shooting! The old coot did the damn same thing with me my first hunt too & he was honestly surprised when i hit it at 300. Probably not as much as I was, to be honest! To this day though, he STILL doesn't trust anything 7mm.
I'm assuming that in his day, bullet construction wasn't what it is now & he
says he lost & had to track more elk hit with 7s than all other calibers combined.

Adds nothing to the thread really. Just telling a bit of a story is all.

Idk man, thats the most reasonable suggestion I’ve read. Plus how many people are going to jog 1200 yards carrying all their gear and rifle then jog back.
Funny thing about the 7mm, not the first time I had heard or read that. There is an early meateater podcast where Janis mentions how he hated to guide clients who shot a 7mag for the same reason. Goes back to the point a few have made about using properly constructed bullets.

 

[Stalker69]

Jesus Christ dude, how much clearer do I need to make this? In the 6 years I've known him I can count on one hand the number of times he's fired either rifle, neither one more than 10 times. They never come out of the case til a couple days prior to the hunt, and a couple shots at 100yds to confirm that "yep, dead on still". His scope you can't even see the 1000yd hash mark when you zoom up because of the shitty ballistics of that load. You're trying to tell me there's more to this than I know? I know for a fact he's full of it, and he's gotten his information from reading long range forums, and not from actually shooting. There's a huge disconnect between the two.

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I don’t give a flying &** about your boss and how he lies and sucks at shooting. You keep adding stuff after the fact. ( clearer, you never said how many times he goes shooting, what kind of scope he uses or any details, I guess we are just supposed to read your mind) Maybe give me his phone number and I could inform him, just how bad he is. My whole point has nothing in particular to do about your boss or you, just things we see at camp every year by numerous individuals. And so many times it’s the shooter that can’t hit what they are shooting at, many times because they are way over gunned. And again Most of the time the rifle is capable in the right persons hands. Again I don’t give two sh&*s about you or your boss, this post has nothing to do with him. But again I would gladly let him know what you think of him. I do how ever think there is more to you that he may not know. And to make it clearer for you, a 270 and a 6.5 creedmoor is capable of shooting ( not going to get into killing) out to a 1000 yards and better., in capable hands.

 

[roosiebull]

All I can think about, reading this thread, is my old grizzled mate in western wyoming. He guided for his father's outfit in the Wind Rivers from the late 60s thru the mid 90s before he passed on his guide license.
When I first took an interest in elk, I sought his advice on chamberings & cartridges & i'll never forget what he told me.
He said to bring whatever I shoot best and he'd make damn sure I got close enough that it'd work. He really didn't care a whit about ballistics, MV, Ft/lb or anything like that. I remember him telling me his Dad carried a gallon jug to every camp & asked every hunter how far he could shoot. He'd make every hunter run with that jug, rifle & pack to their stated distance, then run back & shoot. He told me that if they didn't hit it first time, they were limited to 100yds max, regardless of what they were shooting! The old coot did the damn same thing with me my first hunt too & he was honestly surprised when i hit it at 300. Probably not as much as I was, to be honest! To this day though, he STILL doesn't trust anything 7mm.
I'm assuming that in his day, bullet construction wasn't what it is now & he
says he lost & had to track more elk hit with 7s than all other calibers combined.

Adds nothing to the thread really. Just telling a bit of a story is all.

it adds something to the thread, and was a good story..... sounds like a man with a good deal of common sense and experience.

i have heard the same about 7mm, and curious what's behind that.... i have not seen anything bad from a 7mm, but i remember hearing the same thing. could be bullet construction of yesteryear and over confidence in the cartridge, since it's belted, it must have some super power... right?

i have a 7RM, and like it, but i wouldn't take any shot with it that i wouldn't take with a 270... or my needmoore for that matter.... part of that is my own abilities behind a rifle, i just don't have the time or desire to shoot far enough proficiently to stretch the legs of that rifle. i do some 500yd shooting at the range.... off a bench, all tucked into the rifle... doesn't mean much.

i did kill a lion at 497yds with my 7mag, but that's the extent of my long range career, never took another shot at a critter beyond 311yds.... regionally that's all i need to shoot, and i can keep things simple with a MPBR on my rifle with a nice light scope.

 

[Spoonbill]

it adds something to the thread, and was a good story..... sounds like a man with a good deal of common sense and experience.

i have heard the same about 7mm, and curious what's behind that.... i have not seen anything bad from a 7mm, but i remember hearing the same thing. could be bullet construction of yesteryear and over confidence in the cartridge, since it's belted, it must have some super power... right?

i have a 7RM, and like it, but i wouldn't take any shot with it that i wouldn't take with a 270... or my needmoore for that matter.... part of that is my own abilities behind a rifle, i just don't have the time or desire to shoot far enough proficiently to stretch the legs of that rifle. i do some 500yd shooting at the range.... off a bench, all tucked into the rifle... doesn't mean much.

i did kill a lion at 497yds with my 7mag, but that's the extent of my long range career, never took another shot at a critter beyond 311yds.... regionally that's all i need to shoot, and i can keep things simple with a MPBR on my rifle with a nice light scope.

From what I have read, ammo companies were loading 7mm bullets meant for down loaded 7x57s and said 7mm bullets wouldnt perform at 7mag speeds. I also read that red meat will kill you and you should trust the government, so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[Stalker69]

Be better to have a proficiency test prior to the hunt then limit caliber.


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Agree !

 

[AaronMColeman]

If I were a guide I don’t think I’d care about what rifle they brought. I’d make a rule “don’t show up out of shape”.

I’d rather see a physical fitness test. If a guy can hike and cover ground quickly, I’ll bet I can get him into shooting range regardless of what rifle he brought. Who cares how far you can shoot or how much “energy” the round has at 1000y if you can’t catch up with the herd, or hike to the top of the ridge to glass before the sun comes up, or if you can’t get to where the elk are the rifle might as well be a rubber band gun.

 

[nobody]

If I were a guide I don’t think I’d care about what rifle they brought. I’d make a rule “don’t show up out of shape”.

I’d rather see a physical fitness test. If a guy can hike and cover ground quickly, I’ll bet I can get him into shooting range regardless of what rifle he brought. Who cares how far you can shoot or how much “energy” the round has at 1000y if you can’t catch up with the herd, or hike to the top of the ridge to glass before the sun comes up, or if you can’t get to where the elk are the rifle might as well be a rubber band gun.

I hadn't considered this, but now that you say it, I would do this if I ever guided anyone. I was the overweight lard @$$ in camp about 4 years ago, and after a miserable 5 day mule deer hunt with sore knees and constantly being winded and sweaty and sore, I decided no more. So I lost 35 lbs, started running after work with the dog, lifting and doing some cross training, and holy crap I couldn't believe the difference it made. I've heard lots of guys say "you don't need to be ripped to kill big animals," and while they may be right, I would bet they'd have a lot more fun if they were in a little better physical shape so that they can not only get to where the animals are and make the kill, but also carry it out without killing themselves in the process. Packing out an elk is hard enough work when you're in good shape, why add to the misery?

It's not only an overweight thing either. My brothers and I have had 10 reconstructive knee surgeries between the 3 of us (rodeo, basketball, and football took its tole), and even just doing rehab properly and taking extra care to properly prepare our knees through hiking with small amounts of weight, balance exercises, trail running, and mobility exercises makes a giant difference in the aches and pains and our ability to move across terrain. There's lots to this topic, and I think lots of people have an image of a guy with a flat brim hat and torn off sleeves and a pack full of Mtn Ops posting stuff on social media, but if he's fit enough to get where the rest of us can't, maybe we should make some lifestyle changes.

I would hate to be a guide who has to drag an out of shape elk hunter around the mountains. Even the flatlanders who come out west in really good shape oftentimes experience things like altitude sickness, so why add to the misery? For the record, I nothing against flatlanders, just stating an observation!

 

[AaronMColeman]

I hadn't considered this, but now that you say it, I would do this if I ever guided anyone. I was the overweight lard @$$ in camp about 4 years ago, and after a miserable 5 day mule deer hunt with sore knees and constantly being winded and sweaty and sore, I decided no more. So I lost 35 lbs, started running after work with the dog, lifting and doing some cross training, and holy crap I couldn't believe the difference it made. I've heard lots of guys say "you don't need to be ripped to kill big animals," and while they may be right, I would bet they'd have a lot more fun if they were in a little better physical shape so that they can not only get to where the animals are and make the kill, but also carry it out without killing themselves in the process. Packing out an elk is hard enough work when you're in good shape, why add to the misery?

It's not only an overweight thing either. My brothers and I have had 10 reconstructive knee surgeries between the 3 of us (rodeo, basketball, and football took its tole), and even just doing rehab properly and taking extra care to properly prepare our knees through hiking with small amounts of weight, balance exercises, trail running, and mobility exercises makes a giant difference in the aches and pains and our ability to move across terrain. There's lots to this topic, and I think lots of people have an image of a guy with a flat brim hat and torn off sleeves and a pack full of Mtn Ops posting stuff on social media, but if he's fit enough to get where the rest of us can't, maybe we should make some lifestyle changes.

I would hate to be a guide who has to drag an out of shape elk hunter around the mountains. Even the flatlanders who come out west in really good shape oftentimes experience things like altitude sickness, so why add to the misery? For the record, I nothing against flatlanders, just stating an observation!

To be clear, I would take anyone out as a guide (though I've never truly guided so maybe I'd change my mind). I wouldn't make someone miss the trip because it will be miserable for them, that's on them

When I first started elk hunting I was in the worst shape of my life. It wasn't bad, but I had been a decent track runner, I was in the Army, then I fought MMA for a few years. Then...I quit everything due to work and life and really wasn't as fit as I could be. Getting my ass whooped in the mountains got me motivated. I droped 25lbs in a year and it was literally night and day difference from one season to the next. Now I keep myself in shape year round. 30 min HIIT workout everyday...that's it...30 min with no weights nothing, just hard work and realizing the next half hour is going to SUCK.

Anyway, huge tangent from original post, sorry, but if I could give one piece of advice to anyone coming to the mountains to hunt elk it is this: get into the best physical shape you can, you will enjoy this so much more, and your success rate can't help but increase.

 

[roosiebull]

If I were a guide I don’t think I’d care about what rifle they brought. I’d make a rule “don’t show up out of shape”.

I’d rather see a physical fitness test. If a guy can hike and cover ground quickly, I’ll bet I can get him into shooting range regardless of what rifle he brought. Who cares how far you can shoot or how much “energy” the round has at 1000y if you can’t catch up with the herd, or hike to the top of the ridge to glass before the sun comes up, or if you can’t get to where the elk are the rifle might as well be a rubber band gun.

in reality, a good guide just has to adapt to his/her clients.... like using a small cartridge, lack of fitness just adds more limitations.... gotta work around that.

kind of in line with the subject, you see that AZ governor's tag/auction tag where the guy killed that beast of a bull? he was not the poster boy of fitness, but had enough rifle and ability to shoot it to kill a bull of a lifetime for anyone.... of course money was the biggest factor, but those guides made it a reality for that guy who was clearly "whitetail fit" and nothing more... i'm guessing he wasn't shooting a .243

 

[Sled]

those guides made it a reality for that guy who was clearly "whitetail fit" and nothing more...

 

[mavinwa2]

here ya go...
the REAL truth about 6.5 Creedmoor for elk.
for you younger hunters and you internet/web hunters...best 10 min you can listen too.

(18) Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith - YouTube