$4K Budget for .30-06 + Optic - Elk Rifle

[wind gypsy]

I’m curious as why a 700 clone platform is less reliable?

Primarily the triggers.

Short thread in relation:

Geissele Super 700

Who has used this trigger? I put one on my rifle this year. The more I practice with the two-stage the more I like it. After having a TT diamond lock up on me I am beginning to not trust any 700 triggers.

www.rokslide.com

As far as accuracy and precision, APR stands behind their rifles without going through all the hoops that Beretta/Sako/Tikka will make you jump through.

Valid point.

 

[BjornF16]

I’ll agree with z987 on the Tikka. Great value.

I love their 70* bolt lift. They are smooth action. Trigger is good and reliable. Stock is a good form factor but I hate the plastic and flex (some aren’t bothered by it).

I checked the lugs on both of my Tikka’s...both needed lapping (I checked after having accuracy issues with my 7mm-08).

If I only had $1000 for a rifle, that is where I would go.

However, if I had a budget for a custom or semi-custom, that is the route I would go...it’s a personal choice. Always value minded or willing to spend a little more.

I’ll also agree with Wind Gypsy on the twist...like I said earlier, if not planning on shooting long, heavy for caliber or long mono metals like Hammer, then 11 twist is fine.

 

[BjornF16]

Primarily the triggers.

APR runs Trigger Tech triggers...I don’t think it is even an issue.

 

[wind gypsy]

Trigger tech has had their share of issues but I think most notably in the diamond line. Defiance doesn't have the best reputation for running well in inclement weather either.

I'm not in any way saying I wouldn't be happy to carry an APR rifle (with TT trigger and defiance action) on a big hunt, just that I think Tikka/Sako would probably have an edge in the reliability department if exposed to shitty conditions. Probably a little off from the glock comparison where reliability in a pistol can be everything.

 

[HaydenLane]

I am not new to shooting, but I am new to "long range" shooting. I definitely plan on taking some long range shooting classes at my local spot. I'm fortunate to have a range that goes out to 1,200 yards about 40 minutes away.

Are you planning on taking classes/shooting long range with your big game hunting rifle, or having another rifle to do so? Are you doing it for fun, or to maximize the distance at which you can ethically kill animals?

 

[Jjmayes83]

It's not that they are the best rifle out there. Far from it. For the money, by far and away they are the best rifle in the $600Cromo $800SS price range.

I hear you and there has to be a reason why so many people agree with you. But in my experience which isn't much probably 100-150 rounds total between 3 Tikka rifles 2 chambered in 308 and one in 6.5 cm .that hasn't been my experience. If what I've seen personally is average then every savage I've ever owned or fired is more accurate and a better value. Including my 350 dollar axis 243. Maybe I'll give them another shot always looking to buy more guns.

 

[BjornF16]

Trigger tech has had their share of issues but I think most notably in the diamond line. Defiance doesn't have the best reputation for running well in inclement weather either.

I'm not in any way saying I wouldn't be happy to carry an APR rifle (with TT trigger and defiance action) on a big hunt, just that I think Tikka/Sako would probably have an edge in the reliability department if exposed to shitty conditions. Probably a little off from the glock comparison where reliability in a pistol can be everything.

Ok...I hear you.

Sako is not a bad option. Great action, great trigger, better stocks than Tikka for the most part.

I have a Finnlight getting a new suit at MPI custom stocks...the plastic stock went sticky and nothing seems to fix it. Not sure if the Finnlight II stock has the same issue.

Sako would scratch all the itches. I don’t like the weight of the S20 (but may not bother the OP).

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I get it - I was pointing out that in other hobbies I generally only splurge when I see a material benefit. I would never replace my Glock 19 with a $2,000 handgun. If buying a custom Alamo is the exact same thing as buying a $2,000 handgun instead of a Glock, I'd take that into consideration, but many here seem to think this is a flawed comparison.

The fit and finish of the rifle is a concern. I am critical of details and a warped stock, or a barrel that was off center in the channel would be disappointing.


I am not new to shooting, but I am new to "long range" shooting. I definitely plan on taking some long range shooting classes at my local spot. I'm fortunate to have a range that goes out to 1,200 yards about 40 minutes away.

Apologize for the long winded response.

Always inspect the rifle before taking ownership. Can tell the counter person to go grab another one if you find something about it that you do not like. If and when the time comes, it is easy enough to do upgrades as needed. Upgrading stocks on Tikkas is common on Rokslide. Most do it because the want to while a smaller group does it because they need to. Nothing wrong with tinkering.

Folks tend to spend the money where they want to and not necessarily where it does them the most good. I'll use your handgun example. Say your requirements are it must be reliable in a variety of conditions, fits your hands, holds 8+ rounds, chambered in 10mm, and is +P rated. You eyeball the Glock 20, Kimber Eclipse Custom II, and Dan Wesson Wraith (examples only and not recommendations). The Glock checks all the boxes but is nothing special. The Kimber checks all the boxes but is almost twice the price of the Glock, requires more maintenance due to the metal, looks nice, and is just "natural" in your hands. The Dan Wesson Wraith checks all the boxes, is about 3x the cost of the Glock, requires more maintenance due to the metal, and just flat out looks cool. Some folks will go with the Glock because it is the lowest cost option that meets the requirements. Some folks will go with the Dan Wesson because it is the "best". Some folks will like the Glock but will pay more for the Kimber due to the natural feel in their hands. Up the individual to decide what makes the most sense for them.

Any flaws in your fundamentals get magnified the further you shoot. But if your fundamentals are solid, then it is an easier path moving to take longer shots. This is why I tend to recommend taking a class. Most of us, including myself, do have a few bad habits that should be broken. Highly recommend Form's "whip your butt" training plan; it's money when it comes to making shots on game.

 

[jt4]

Here’s my thoughts. I own a t3x in -06 and think it’s a great gun. I’m a good bit under $2k for the gun, vx6hd scope, rings, limbsaver pad, aftermarket bolt handle, bottom metal and vertical grip and painting it so it doesn’t “look” like cheap plastic stock. You can easily stay below that price point and it would leave you a big budget for lots of ammo, case, bipod and sling if you choose.

Having said all that. Is it perfect? No. I still consider upgrading the stock and swapping to a carbon barrel for no reason other than just to tinker. I also consider buying a 300wm all the time in either another t3x or a different gun but then realize it won’t do anything else I need to do when I keep my shots under 400 and don’t hunt grizzlies. 2885 FPS @ 168 grains is plenty for me.

You have the budget to do really whatever you want. It’s all going to be personal preference where you spend the funds. We’re just a bunch of guys that like spending someone else’s money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m curious as why a 700 clone platform is less reliable?

Everything about it. Every 700 pattern actions Achilles heel is the trigger and the way the sear works.

There is no 700 trigger that gets around this. The are two main issues:

1). Drop safe. There are no triggers for a 700 that passes one of the military’s drop requirements. None. The Geissele two stage is the “best”, but it still goes bang when it shouldn’t.

2). Reliability in adverse weather, primarily sleet, ice, snow, and sand. They freeze up in wet, freezing weather more than any other mainline trigger system. Same for dust and sand. That is all of them. Trigger Techs are not immune in any way. As an anecdote- the last time I used a Remington patterned action hunting it locked up- both the trigger and the action, and it is a Trigger Tech.


It’s literally the worst mainline trigger system, and other than laziness and pure ignorance it’s baffling why even good companies/people use them (such as ARC). They are akin to some scopes- it’s laughably easy and simple to show anyone that they fail.



Reliability of most “custom” R700 actions is garbage.

1). Most suffer from poor primary extraction, ejection and compromised feeding (ARC notable exception)

2). Almost all bind when racking quickly.

3). Most suffer feed/function issues in sand and ice.



Before anyone wants to jump in and say “but my ______ has never failed” nonsense, ok sweet. Your granddad smoked three packs a day and lived to 99- that does not mean that when seen in large numbers that the vast majority of people won’t die of lung cancer early from cigarettes.
These companies “making” these actions/triggers/rifles did not test them for feed and function in adverse weather. APR did not conduct actual testing when designing the Maverick in snow, ice, sand, mud, etc. They produced another copy of a subpar design because the market buys it.
The only thing you get when buying a “custom”, and it’s in quotes because R700 customs are just screwed together now; is saying you have a “custom”. In comparison to other rifles, it’s a subpar action system, subpar triggers, and unless it has an integral rail- a subpar mounting system. Yes, I’ve owned and used most of the custom actions and rifles. A lot.


Now, let’s contrast that with some other rifles mentioned here.

The Scandinavian companies and most European companies actually do conduct legitimate testing and validation for feed, function, and precision during design of their rifles. A Tikka T3 was literally designed to feed smoothly and reliably in deep winter, snow and ice conditions. Ditto for Sako’s. And Sauers. And Blasers.

With a Tikka directly compared to any of the “custom” 700 actions or rifles you get-

1). One of the best actions for reliability, durability, and function is bad conditions.

2). An anti bind bolt, extremely smooth feeding with singe stack, single feed polymer mags that work extremely well in snow and ice.

3). One of the most reliable triggers systems on the market, that breaks and feels like most aftermarket triggers, and is adjustable to 2.2-2.5lbs without modification.

4). Very good barrels that are properly stress relieved and consistent. Having seen hundreds of “custom” barrels shot, there is a very small, to no notice difference on average between lightweight custom barrels and factory Sako/Tikka barrels. A number 1 or 2 contour barrel will average around 1 moa for multiple ten round groups for both. Same for Sauer, Blaser, etc.

3). Not a carbon fiber stock, however one of the stiffest if not the stiffest polymer stocks on a factory gun. This is easily seen by going to a gun store, grabbing rifles by just the forend and torquing to see it move.


The cons of the T3x, which don’t apply to the OP’s use are limited magazine COAL for magnums, and twist rate for the longest bullets available for 7mm and 30cals. However, this is way overblown. An 11” twist 30cal will stabilize 208gr ELD-M’s without issue.


One can kill animals with about anything. Yet objectively: stock Sako/Tikka, Sauer, and Blasers are better in every way in feed, function, and feel (except for a couple notable exceptions) than all “custom” R700 based actions and rifles. You’re getting duped into “better” when they are not.

 

[SDHNTR]

None of those features will make an animal more dead, or make him hit where he would have missed with a stock tikka, weatherby, etc at anything under 500.

You could argue that, but lets also assume your statement is correct for a moment. What if he just likes nicer tools, has the budget and is willing to pay for it? A Honda Civic does the same thing, yet people still buy Mercedes.

 

[BjornF16]

@Formidilosus

How do you rate Weatherby Mark V ?

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

You could argue that, but lets also assume your statement is correct for a moment. What if he just likes nicer tools, has the budget and is willing to pay for it? A Honda Civic does the same thing, yet people still buy Mercedes.

Not the best analogy.

Mercedes has status and tend to be nicely appointed but require a ton of expensive repairs to keep them going. Honda doesn’t have the status, are not necessarily well appointed but will keep going with minimal maintenance.

But yes, folks are free to spend their money how they want to.

 

[DropTyne]

There is way too much talk about "need" on this thread. What does "need" or logic have to do with anything with hunting and shooting? Truthful, none of us "need" more than few (yes one or two) center fire rifles. Hopefully my wife doesn't read this thread. Haha

If the OP wants to splurge and get a nice custom rifle, have at it. There is nothing wrong with a guy buying a nice rifle and wanting to do all of his big game hunting with it.

As far as scopes, too many folks are basing the quality of a scope on the price. I sold all of my $1,800 Swarovski scopes when I tried Tract and SWFA scopes. I have yet to find a better scope for mechanical reliability with great glass quality. All for less than $700. Nightforce and the Bushnell LHRS are probably as good or better, but will cost significantly more. The days of having to spend $1500 or more on quality scopes are gone.

 

[bsnedeker]

and twist rate for the longest bullets available for 7mm and 30cals. However, this is way overblown. An 11” twist 30cal will stabilize 208gr ELD-M’s without issue.

I wish I had known how true this was earlier! When I got my T3 in 300WM I loaded up some 178 ELDM's because of the theoretical concerns about twist rate. I got a good load worked up and was happy with it.

Then I ran out of components but was able to get my hands on some 200 grain Precision Hunter ammo and was DREADING how my accuracy was going to suffer....yeah right. Those things shot just as good, if not better, than my hand loads.

Also, on the COAL limitations, with 300WM loaded to SAAMI COAL I have a .25 inch jump to the lands...it doesn't matter. It shoots MOA 10-shot groups all day long if I'm doing my job.

 

[bsnedeker]

Not the best analogy.

Mercedes has status and tend to be nicely appointed but require a ton of expensive repairs to keep them going. Honda doesn’t have the status, are not necessarily well appointed but will keep going with minimal maintenance.

But yes, folks are free to spend their money how they want to.

I used to own a benz...it was absolutely the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned! I had it for over 5 years and the only issue it had was the occasional ignition coil would go out which is a 50 dollar part and a 5 minute job. Just saying!

 

[alex_b]

Christensen Arms Mesa or Ridgeline. Vortex Razor LHT 3-15x42

 

[SDHNTR]

Form obviously has his strong opinions which are based oh his experience. I'm not going to argue, just state my opinions based on my experience. Me, I'd take a Defiance and a Trigger Tech over a Tikka any and every day! I also think most, if not all, custom rifle builders would agree to the same too. I like being able to choose between short and long action and I don't like or understand that floating recoil lug. I've never had any sort of trouble whatsoever after hauling rifles from the sand and dirt of AZ and NM to the ice of Alaska and all over the Rockies. Never had any issues with binding either. In fact, this last season I shot a cow elk twice as she was still on her feet. When we got back to camp, my friend who was hunting about 1/2 mile away asked me if I brought an AR out into the field. The shots were that close together. Zero extraction issues, even with hot loads leaving serious ejector marks. Visually, primary extraction looks spot on, with nice even wear on the camming surfaces. Tikkas are great for what they are, at their price point, no doubt. But I like nice stuff and am willing to pay for it. I very much prefer Defiance, or a few other Rem clone customs I've owned or fondled.

Now if we wanna talk production actions, I'll wax poetic on a Classic or pre 64 Model 70 ALL damn day long. Love em!

 

[Woodrow F Call]

I bought a Tikka T3x SS Lightweight in 6.5 CM, Sportsmatch Rings, SWFA 6X scope due advice from Formidilosus.

I've had it a couple of years now. It does what Form said it would as far as I can tell. It'll put 10 rounds cold to hot in under an inch. Action is smooth. It's not heavy. It's not picky about ammo. Feeds easy.

The only complaints I have is that it's a little loud when cycling the action due to the plastic magazine but that can be mitigated..... and finding bullets to load has been difficult because of everyone buying everything available.

It's the easy button solution that costs way less than your budget which will help with buying all the ammo your going to need shooting it.

Nothing wrong with wanting something nicer and prettier. If you just want something to work, this is the combo.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I used to own a benz...it was absolutely the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned! I had it for over 5 years and the only issue it had was the occasional ignition coil would go out which is a 50 dollar part and a 5 minute job. Just saying!

Several friends have Mercedes (different models) and their’s have been money pits. Was enough for me to know that I’d never considering picking one up. Am happy that you’ve had a positive experience with their brand.

We have three Hondas in my house ranging from almost 9 years old to almost 15 years old. All are going strong with minimal upkeep. They’re not as well appointed as Mercedes, but the massively fatter bank account (would be a lot fatter if I didn’t hunt) is pretty damn nice.

But who am I to talk. Have already spent a small fortune on my optics arsenal with a BTX likely coming in 2022.