.280 AI vs 28 Nosler for All Around?

A 28 Nosler will work just fine on Antelope to Elk at 100 yards or 800, with zero meat loss if you can hit what you aim at. The cost is ammo, and barrel life will be somewhere around 600 rounds and after that it's just a matter of time before it opens up. It adds up quick.
No need for a .223, you already have a bow.
I'd look at a 7prc on the bigger end or a 6.5 prc or creedmore for mid level.
 
A 28 Nosler will work just fine on Antelope to Elk at 100 yards or 800, with zero meat loss if you can hit what you aim at. The cost is ammo, and barrel life will be somewhere around 600 rounds and after that it's just a matter of time before it opens up. It adds up quick.
No need for a .223, you already have a bow.
I'd look at a 7prc on the bigger end or a 6.5 prc or creedmore for mid level.
I've heard so much negative stuff about the 6.5 and based on this thread, it seems perfect. I can't count how many times i've seen "6.5 Needmore"..Do you think a lot of people are running the wrong loads through them?
 
I've heard so much negative stuff about the 6.5 and based on this thread, it seems perfect. I can't count how many times i've seen "6.5 Needmore"..Do you think a lot of people are running the wrong loads through them?

It would be hard to argue with a 6.5 creed Tikka. 140 or 147 ELDm, 143 ELDx, 127 LRX if you like or need copper are the most loved 6.5 projectiles around here. There is a ton of good, highly available 6.5creed ammo.

Pair it with an identical .223 and your Kool-aid is free!
 
I've heard so much negative stuff about the 6.5 and based on this thread, it seems perfect. I can't count how many times i've seen "6.5 Needmore"..Do you think a lot of people are running the wrong loads through them?

I think animals are unpredictable. A good shot with a CM could end with a Dead Right There animal or (especially with elk) a long-ish run while dead on its feet, same as a .300WM. A poor shot it's going to run no matter what. A guy (especially if he's been primed to think this way) sees the runner with a CM and says "see, that's why you need a bigger gun." He sees the runner with the magnum and says, "Man these animals are tough, good thing I had the magnum!"

He sees the DRT as happening because everything went right with the CM, vs "by gawd, look how that magnum put him down!"

There's not a huge difference in animal behavior or time to incapacitation for similar style of bullets between larger and smaller cartridges, but there's a big cognitive difference in the way we interpret the animal behavior and what led to it.
 
I've heard so much negative stuff about the 6.5 and based on this thread, it seems perfect. I can't count how many times i've seen "6.5 Needmore"..Do you think a lot of people are running the wrong loads through them?
I think it's just folks poopooing new and popular things, kind of a "kids these days" attitude, especially if you're in the big cartridge authority camp.

6.5 creedmoor is popular for a reason: easy to shoot, low-moderate recoil, cheap ammo, commonly good accuracy from factory guns w/ factory ammo.

I could see it losing some market share to 6 creed over time and it is potentially a little less good for mono bullets, especially from a short barrel (compared to 6 creed which is faster at muzzle) if you end up wanting or needing to shoot them.
 
I've heard so much negative stuff about the 6.5 and based on this thread, it seems perfect. I can't count how many times i've seen "6.5 Needmore"..Do you think a lot of people are running the wrong loads through them?

People who suck tend to badmouth cartridges. It’s easier to blame the cartridge than oneself. The 6.5 CM with proper bullets will easily kill anything in North America. It might not be my first choice for a grizzly bear, but anything else it would be fine.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”
 
A 28 Nosler will work just fine on Antelope to Elk at 100 yards or 800, with zero meat loss if you can hit what you aim at. The cost is ammo, and barrel life will be somewhere around 600 rounds and after that it's just a matter of time before it opens up. It adds up quick.
How much practice does it take to get there? At $5/round how much do you figure most guys are going to practice? It's like getting a Ferrari at age 16 for a daily driver and track car. Impossible to drive to its potential if you don't have a lot of seat time. Impossible to get a lot of seat time without crazy maintenance/repair costs. Much more direct route to proficiency with a Miata DD/track car, then something higher horsepower later if/when the car becomes the limiting factor.
No need for a .223, you already have a bow.
No need for a bow, you already have a knife. How does a bow help with getting cheap and productive practice with a rifle or killing elk and deer at 400 yards?
I'd look at a 7prc on the bigger end or a 6.5 prc or creedmore for mid level.

I guess this part I'll agree with the very end. A 6.5CM would be the most reasonable of all the options you laid out (but still more recoil and ammo expense than needed for all reasonable hunting shots for 99% of rifle hunters).
 
I've heard so much negative stuff about the 6.5 and based on this thread, it seems perfect. I can't count how many times i've seen "6.5 Needmore"..Do you think a lot of people are running the wrong loads through them?

Couple of things to add:

1) The biggest reason for small calibers isn't that they kill just fine, but also that it's just easier to accurately hit with them - recoil anticipation, muzzle blast, and just flinching in general are all way less of an issue with .223. That gets magnified by just how much more people will train with a .223, between cost and just pleasant shooting - it has a compounding effect. Along with not developing a flinch that can come from trying to do high-volume training with a heavier recoiling gun and cartridge combo. Bottom line on .223 is that you just hit what you want far more effectively, across all these reasons, and a good bullet in that casing will kill anything in North America with a standard vitals shot.

2) Bullet selection matters immensely, but never more than shot-placement. Similar to your point about ear shots to moose, etc. Plenty of bear and moose killed with FMJ, but long, heavy-for-caliber does a better job of tissue damage. Monometals can do the job just fine too. But the tipped match bullets seem to just kill the best, because of the fragmentation effect and the tissue damage that causes, far wider than the actual main bullet track.

3) The same tipped match bullet that's just right for .223 or 6mm can be serious overkill in a 7mm or .30cal. Definitely take the time to read through the .223 for bear, moose, etc thread, there's photos of all of it in there. And by serious overkill, we're talking deer and elk shoulders completely bloodshot and wasted, by a shot that was meant for the vitals but just missed by a few inches.

4) Absolutely, completely ignore any talk about a cartridge's capabilities beyond 350 yards - until you can hammer a paper plate/8" bull 10 for 10 in field conditions at the distances beyond that which you want to discuss. Discussion of long-range ballistics does nothing but fuel fantasies, delusions, and a warped perception of hunting realities. And, out to that distance, there's virtually no appreciable difference in bullet impact between any common rifle cartridge out there. At best, good bullet selection will help buck the wind a bit. I could tell you all the details, but just go on youtube and look up Eric Cortina's ethical hunter challenges, and BackFire's milk jug/field shooting challenges - it will quickly show you the realities of just how badly people perform in the field, and just how much of the ballistics discussion of any given cartridge just doesn't matter at realistic, ethical distances.

5) Ethical distances are what you can do in hitting a vitals-sized target 10 for 10 in any given field conditions.


I think animals are unpredictable. A good shot with a CM could end with a Dead Right There animal or (especially with elk) a long-ish run while dead on its feet, same as a .300WM. A poor shot it's going to run no matter what. A guy (especially if he's been primed to think this way) sees the runner with a CM and says "see, that's why you need a bigger gun." He sees the runner with the magnum and says, "Man these animals are tough, good thing I had the magnum!"

He sees the DRT as happening because everything went right with the CM, vs "by gawd, look how that magnum put him down!"

There's not a huge difference in animal behavior or time to incapacitation for similar style of bullets between larger and smaller cartridges, but there's a big cognitive difference in the way we interpret the animal behavior and what led to it.


Absolutely nailed it. Probably the best description I've read of the psychology of cartridge results.

Only thing I'd add for the OP's consideration, is that cartridge selection is often a d*ck measuring contest, along with some sort of weird thing where people seem to feel diminished in their hunt if they think about taking a big buck or bull with something "unworthy", like a .223. A big magnum seems to be more respectful and worthy, somehow, on trophies...but guys don't have that hangup with doe hunts. It's weird, but real.
 
@RockAndSage and @eric1115 makes sense! You also tend to hear more poor results than positive when it comes to things (and people) doing their jobs.

I can only add to 4 and 5..I have no interest in long distance shooting as far as hunting goes. For one, a lot of my trips will be solo. It's either that or not at all. So the packout really needs to be considered. I would much rather go home with nothing except the experience than have a dead animal 500 yards away on the next ridge that I can't get to. Or have animals chomping on it.

That, and I'm a bow hunter. I will only use a rifle if needed. Bear hunting with no bait/spot and stalk seems like pretty low archery odds although I want to try anyway. A lot of blacktail hunts seem like rifle territory. Mule deer too. Having a rifle will give me a lot more options and we only have so much time.
 
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