.308 vs 7 SAUM/7 WSM ballistic not so different for hunting inside 500 yards?

[ssimo]

I am currently hunting with a .308 rifle and my shots are usually inside 250 yards. I hunt roe deer (50-60 pounds), fellow deer (up tp 250 pounds) and wild boars (up to
350 pounds) and i prefer to have a single cartridge in a given rifle for all these species. I am very comfodent shooting much past that distance but i am using a very bad BC european ball (RWS DK 165 gr). This projectile drift like crazy with wind and drops a lot so i decided to change it for a more aerodynamic bullet and then i will keep on using that rifle for stalk hunting with shots inside of 300 yards. That said, i am also gonna build a slightly heavier and bulkier rifle for more static hunting with a schmit und bender scope with ballistic turrets for shots up to 500 meters (550 yards). So i was looking at modern calibers like 300 WSM, 7 WSM, 7 SAUM. A part from the big energy advantage of 300 WSM, these calibers don't appear to differ so much from a 308 with a high BC projectile as far as energies and trajectories. For example, a 165 gr 308 standard accubond at 300 yards in a 10 km/h wind drifts just one inch more than a 150 gr 7mm SAUM. Even if the 7 SAUM has an energy advantage (2250 vs 2690 joules), it's shooting a much smaller diameter and lighter projectile. What do you think?

Below some ballistic data with the name of caliber and bullet elegantly written by me below ahah

 

[Tahoe1305]

So I won’t argue with your numbers. But I do think comparing about the highest BC bullet in 308 that can fit with good velocity in the cartridge with a very light for cartridge bullet in the 7mm class won’t be an apple to apples comparison.

If you loaded up a 162/165/175 bullet (really almost middle weights for 7mm) and compared I think you’d find a tad different result.

Fwiw inside 500yds I agree it likely isn’t worth it.

But a 7mm ~170g (.65BC) projectile going 2900fps is going to thump any 308 165g (.5BC) projectile going 2800 fps by a good margin.

 

[OdinIII]

I think the cartridge doesn’t matter nearly as much as some think. Practice with what you have and you’ll be deadly at the ranges you are talking about with whatever round you happen to be shooting.

 

[ssimo]

So I won’t argue with your numbers. But I do think comparing about the highest BC bullet in 308 that can fit with good velocity in the cartridge with a very light for cartridge bullet in the 7mm class won’t be an apple to apples comparison.

If you loaded up a 162/165/175 bullet (really almost middle weights for 7mm) and compared I think you’d find a tad different result.

Fwiw inside 500yds I agree it likely isn’t worth it.

But a 7mm ~170g (.65BC) projectile going 2900fps is going to thump any 308 165g (.5BC) projectile going 2800 fps by a good margin.

I checked, you are right. Still not a huge difference but we all know that even 1 inch can make a lot of difference with all the variables involved in hunting, especially on small roe deer were the ideal shot must land in a 7-8 inch diameter area.

I would choose the 7 SUAM all day but i am really struggling finding brass for handloading, let alone rifles chambered in that caliber and commercial ammo here in Italy. Do you know a quality rifle with that chambering?

P.s. i won’t buy a Blaser cause i don't like the straight pull and tikka x3 doesn't look so good with their cheap stock and plastic parts. I love Bergaras but they don't seem to have a rifle in 7 SUAM or even 7 WSM

 

[Tahoe1305]

I checked, you are right. Still not a huge difference but we all know that even 1 inch can make a lot of difference with all the variables involved in hunting, especially on small roe deer were the ideal shot must land in a 7-8 inch diameter area.

I would choose the 7 SUAM all day but i am really struggling finding brass for handloading, let alone rifles chambered in that caliber and commercial ammo here in Italy. Do you know a quality rifle with that chambering?

P.s. i won’t buy a Blaser cause i don't like the straight pull and tikka x3 doesn't look so good with their cheap stock and plastic parts. I love Bergaras but they don't seem to have a rifle in 7 SUAM or even 7 WSM

If you wanted a SAUM easiest to get an action you like and then order a prefit. Easy DIY project with a min $$ tool investment.

100% need to have brass first.

Agree with above that seems like a lot of work to fix something that ain’t broken. 308 will get the job done you just need to have better dope and more precise field measurements for wind and elevation

 

[ssimo]

I think the cartridge doesn’t matter nearly as much as some think. Practice with what you have and you’ll be deadly at the ranges you are talking about with whatever round you happen to be shooting.

Generally i agree. Being able to read the enviroment and anticipating animal's moves is the most important thing, i can easily find myself within a couple hundred yards from any game on almost any hunting trip i do. But sometimes i have to get closer in dofficult ways when a 270-350 meters would have been pretty easy. I could use a 308 for this of course but the variables (wind, drop, downrange performance due to lower speed) become bigger. And i like to be always the most precise possibile so reducing the influence of these variables even only a little bit would be great. Unfortunately it seems like these new modern cartridges are not chambered in most guns i like. For example, even if i have some nice collectables from winchester, savage and remington, seeing the quality of the firearms manufactured by these brands dropping year after year i wouldn't buy them.

Last month i went to EOS (the biggest gun show in Italy) and i saw some winchester and remington offerings. The open bolt on a XPR was rattling more than a maracas.. wtf

 

[ssimo]

If you wanted a SAUM easiest to get an action you like and then order a prefit. Easy DIY project with a min $$ tool investment.

100% need to have brass first.

Agree with above that seems like a lot of work to fix something that ain’t broken. 308 will get the job done you just need to have better dope and more precise field measurements for wind and elevation

You are probably right. I also do a very difficult job and I don't have time to build a rifle project, i don't even know where to start so i should ask help to an armorer but finding a good one is not easy as you know, especially in a country which is much smaller than the US.

Yeah my next rifle will have ballistic turrets and i will dial for elevation and hold for wind on a MIL ffp reticle so it will work also in a 308. But as i said reducing the influence of the various variables is always good. I do a very dinamic kind of hunting in the hillside in northern Italy so it will have to be reasonably lightweight but not even too much to get more stability. The 308 has many advantages like ubiquitous availability, no need for ear protection while hunting, low recoil, great precision, etc. Oh and longer barrel life. Still i'd love to have a chambering with a more aerodynamic bullet and a more flat trajectory. Being able to shoot 300 meters with minimal drop compensation would be very nice and a flatter trajectory is more forgiving if you are mistaken of some meters while rangefinding.. but the most important thing is wind drift. Wind here is often present and it changes intensity and direction suddenly so compensation are difficult on some days.

So which .308 bullet would you choose for my applications? I mostly used RWS Dk until now, they are partitioned bullets, but their aerodynamic is awful as you can see from the chart. I always liked the idea of a partitioned bullet because of its versatility but recently i had to double shot a roe deer for the first time in my life because the ball didn't expand since it passed between one rib and the next one. It pierced both lungs but it didn't expand and the animal was still alive after more or less 10 minutes, even if it didn't go far at all. Generally this kind of bullets work decently on small sized games like roe deer but not perfectly. They run a bit too much if you aim at heart/lungs area, even with the hearth completely destroyed. There is much less meat loss but softpoints or more soft tipped bullets are much more effective in stopping the animal.

So basically i would like a bullet to be used between 5 and 500 yards, with good aerodynamic and velocity, good expansion (not too soft for big boars, not too hard for small roe deer) at these distances.

Damn, things are much easier if you hunt only whitetails ahah

 

[BjornF16]

Inside 500m not sure why you think you need a magnum.

Pick a commonly available 7mm cartridge where you’re at (Europe?) then pick a good bullet.

To be more honest, I don’t see why you wouldn’t pick a 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge. The bullet is more important than the brass.

There are some good threads on this forum showing the lethality of .224”/6mm/6.5mm bullets.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Generally i agree. Being able to read the enviroment and anticipating animal's moves is the most important thing, i can easily find myself within a couple hundred yards from any game on almost any hunting trip i do. But sometimes i have to get closer in dofficult ways when a 270-350 meters would have been pretty easy. I could use a 308 for this of course but the variables (wind, drop, downrange performance due to lower speed) become bigger. And i like to be always the most precise possibile so reducing the influence of these variables even only a little bit would be great. Unfortunately it seems like these new modern cartridges are not chambered in most guns i like. For example, even if i have some nice collectables from winchester, savage and remington, seeing the quality of the firearms manufactured by these brands dropping year after year i wouldn't buy them.

Last month i went to EOS (the biggest gun show in Italy) and i saw some winchester and remington offerings. The open bolt on a XPR was rattling more than a maracas.. wtf

Is good 7mm Rem mag ammo available in Italy loaded with 168 bergers or 162 ELDX?
If not something like the 6.5 prc would be perfect for your ranges and size of game

 

[ssimo]

Inside 500m not sure why you think you need a magnum.

Pick a commonly available 7mm cartridge where you’re at (Europe?) then pick a good bullet.

To be more honest, I don’t see why you wouldn’t pick a 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge. The bullet is more important than the brass.

There are some good threads on this forum showing the lethality of .224”/6mm/6.5mm bullets.

I have to use at least a 7 mm for fallow deer, it's tha law. I would pick a 7 mm and above for big boars anyway!

Yeah i was also thinking about the 7x64..

I would like a magnum for the reasons i already wrote above. Roe deer are small, lot of wind, bla bla bla

 

[ssimo]

Is good 7mm Rem mag ammo available in Italy loaded with 168 bergers or 162 ELDX?
If not something like the 6.5 prc would be perfect for your ranges and size of game

Unfortunately the 7 mm is the minimum for fallow deer here.. even if 6.5 prc really looks amazing and surely it would work, i would prefer a 7 and above anyway, boars are tough and big here. And then i tend to use bigger calibers than the minimum required, in the limits of common sense

 

[ssimo]

Is good 7mm Rem mag ammo available in Italy loaded with 168 bergers or 162 ELDX?
If not something like the 6.5 prc would be perfect for your ranges and size of game

And i heard ELD-X are not very reliable and they often fail to penetrate or fragment

 

[BjornF16]

I have to use at least a 7 mm for fallow deer, it's tha law. I would pick a 7 mm and above for big boars anyway!

Yeah i was also thinking about the 7x64..

I would like a magnum for the reasons i already wrote above. Roe deer are small, lot of wind, bla bla bla

You’ll have better hits rates with the smaller cartridge than with a magnum.

Pick a good wind bucking bullet in 7mm-08, 7x57 or 7x64

 

[wind gypsy]

For up to 550 yards, I say put a nice scope on your 308, develop a snappy load with 155 lapua scenars, and spend the saved money on ammo or components to practice with.

A sleek 160-180 class 7mm at modest velocities will get you there too with a little less wind deflection.

 

[Tahoe1305]

You are probably right. I also do a very difficult job and I don't have time to build a rifle project, i don't even know where to start so i should ask help to an armorer but finding a good one is not easy as you know, especially in a country which is much smaller than the US.

Yeah my next rifle will have ballistic turrets and i will dial for elevation and hold for wind on a MIL ffp reticle so it will work also in a 308. But as i said reducing the influence of the various variables is always good. I do a very dinamic kind of hunting in the hillside in northern Italy so it will have to be reasonably lightweight but not even too much to get more stability. The 308 has many advantages like ubiquitous availability, no need for ear protection while hunting, low recoil, great precision, etc. Oh and longer barrel life. Still i'd love to have a chambering with a more aerodynamic bullet and a more flat trajectory. Being able to shoot 300 meters with minimal drop compensation would be very nice and a flatter trajectory is more forgiving if you are mistaken of some meters while rangefinding.. but the most important thing is wind drift. Wind here is often present and it changes intensity and direction suddenly so compensation are difficult on some days.

So which .308 bullet would you choose for my applications? I mostly used RWS Dk until now, they are partitioned bullets, but their aerodynamic is awful as you can see from the chart. I always liked the idea of a partitioned bullet because of its versatility but recently i had to double shot a roe deer for the first time in my life because the ball didn't expand since it passed between one rib and the next one. It pierced both lungs but it didn't expand and the animal was still alive after more or less 10 minutes, even if it didn't go far at all. Generally this kind of bullets work decently on small sized games like roe deer but not perfectly. They run a bit too much if you aim at heart/lungs area, even with the hearth completely destroyed. There is much less meat loss but softpoints or more soft tipped bullets are much more effective in stopping the animal.

So basically i would like a bullet to be used between 5 and 500 yards, with good aerodynamic and velocity, good expansion (not too soft for big boars, not too hard for small roe deer) at these distances.

Damn, things are much easier if you hunt only whitetails ahah

To answer your bullet question I’d say something between 160-180g. Your idea of 165 is about perfect for a 308.

I use 178g eldx without issue. I’ve only had one bad experience with eldx and that was WAY faster than a 308 will ever be at 3200fps. At 308 speeds out to 500yds I think they’d be perfect. I wish they made a 160 class eldx bullet in 308.

 

[crgchck]

You are probably right. I also do a very difficult job and I don't have time to build a rifle project, i don't even know where to start so i should ask help to an armorer but finding a good one is not easy as you know, especially in a country which is much smaller than the US.

Yeah my next rifle will have ballistic turrets and i will dial for elevation and hold for wind on a MIL ffp reticle so it will work also in a 308. But as i said reducing the influence of the various variables is always good. I do a very dinamic kind of hunting in the hillside in northern Italy so it will have to be reasonably lightweight but not even too much to get more stability. The 308 has many advantages like ubiquitous availability, no need for ear protection while hunting, low recoil, great precision, etc. Oh and longer barrel life. Still i'd love to have a chambering with a more aerodynamic bullet and a more flat trajectory. Being able to shoot 300 meters with minimal drop compensation would be very nice and a flatter trajectory is more forgiving if you are mistaken of some meters while rangefinding.. but the most important thing is wind drift. Wind here is often present and it changes intensity and direction suddenly so compensation are difficult on some days.

So which .308 bullet would you choose for my applications? I mostly used RWS Dk until now, they are partitioned bullets, but their aerodynamic is awful as you can see from the chart. I always liked the idea of a partitioned bullet because of its versatility but recently i had to double shot a roe deer for the first time in my life because the ball didn't expand since it passed between one rib and the next one. It pierced both lungs but it didn't expand and the animal was still alive after more or less 10 minutes, even if it didn't go far at all. Generally this kind of bullets work decently on small sized games like roe deer but not perfectly. They run a bit too much if you aim at heart/lungs area, even with the hearth completely destroyed. There is much less meat loss but softpoints or more soft tipped bullets are much more effective in stopping the animal.

So basically i would like a bullet to be used between 5 and 500 yards, with good aerodynamic and velocity, good expansion (not too soft for big boars, not too hard for small roe deer) at these distances.

Damn, things are much easier if you hunt only whitetails ahah

If you have general mechanical knowledge and access to an action, the remage barrels are an easy 30 min deal.. you mentioned Bergara.. any Rem 700 or clone will do the trick. If you have trouble getting a remage barrel, pm me…

 

[FLS]

I own a 7 SAUM. It and the 7 WSM would be some of the last cartridges I would choose, based on availability of factory ammo and components (brass). The ballistic advantages both cartridges offer are irrelevant if you are constantly searching for brass or ammo. Boutique chambered barrels, barreled actions and firearms are constantly for sale in the classified. There is a reason. Once the cool factor has worn off, its just a pain in the ass to feed the things.
As stated above, I would find a good load .308 load, buy or load it in bulk and call it a day.

 

[Alex Genereux]

Adg has 7 saum brass every 6 months just get a waiting list and have some as you build your rifle.

 

[Alex Genereux]

You can actually backorder it on unknown munitions now.

ADG Brass - Unknown Munitions

6UM Brass is expected to run in December, it will be 6UM head stamp and 6MM neck but the shoulder will still need to be fireformed. 6.8 Western first real production run will be in January. ADG brass was designed not only for consistency, but for durability. One of the ways we accomplished this...

www.unknownmunitions.com

 

[ssimo]

For up to 550 yards, I say put a nice scope on your 308, develop a snappy load with 155 lapua scenars, and spend the saved money on ammo or components to practice with.

A sleek 160-180 class 7mm at modest velocities will get you there too with a little less wind deflection.

Yeah that's my plan but i won't put another scope on the rifle i am using now. I'll keep this light, handy and simple with a normal German IV and a bullet that allows me to reach 250/300 yards without much compensation. I'll continue using it as my main rifle for stalking, it works so well and I intentionally didn't put a bdc reticle or turrets to keep everything as simple and straight forward as it can be. Point and shoot.

The rifle i'm building will allow longer shots and i will use it only in certain situations like still hunting in open valleys and staff like this. This rifle will be less handy and a bit heavier (it will have a bigger scope, bipod and a longer barrel) to ensure more stability and making long shots more reliable.

But I will look into lapua scenars for sure man, thanks!